Nontraditional Nun tag

It was brought up in the discord, mostly pointing out that it would be a western counterpart to nontraditional miko, that a nontraditional nun that could be made.

Now what counts as such is likely gonna be up in the air, but as a start we can go after the "slutty nun" outfits and go from there, since there's nearly a dozen different traditional habits for nuns apart from the Roman Catholic (perhaps we should make tags for the various denominations outfits that are represented enough to warrant it?)

I think i remember seeing this exact tag already exist not too long ago, i dont know what exactly caused it's nuking or when exactly, but isn't it's purpose kind of questionable anyway? majority of posts on this site containing a nun would fall under it if we follow the "slutty nun" suggestion, and it's easy to get next to 0 traditional nun in the results by adding rating:e,q to the nun tag search, even ignoring the now ever growing influx of justina follower posts. And the total amount of posts in the search results is x3 if you broaden the search to include rating:sentitive, all still with next to 0 traditional nuns
I think nowadays the concept of nun in the collective mind, and especially on the internet, is already more sexualized than sfw, and accentuated on a site like danbooru centered around anime art, nuns are even more sexual in the minds of japanese artists, judging by the average nun outfit design in non-ecchi anime

Mayhem-Chan said:

I think i remember seeing this exact tag already exist not too long ago, I don't know what exactly caused its nuking or when exactly...

Double-checking the tag history of nontraditional nun, it was spontaneously created in mid-November last year, tagged on six posts by five different users, and then spontaneously nuked by one user near the start of January this year. There seemed to have been no discussion behind its creation (neither on-site nor on the Discord) and no discussion behind its nuking. It just seemed to randomly come and go, like a fart in the wind.

...isn't its purpose kind of questionable anyway? Majority of posts on this site containing a nun would fall under it if we follow the "slutty nun" suggestion, and it's easy to get next to 0 traditional nun in the results by adding rating:e,q to the nun tag search, even ignoring the now-ever growing influx of Justina Follower posts. And the total amount of posts in the search results is x3 if you broaden the search to include rating:sensitive, all still with next to no traditional nuns.

I think nowadays the concept of nun in the collective mind, and especially on the Internet, is already more sexualized than SFW, and accentuated on a site like Danbooru, centered around anime art, nuns are even more sexual in the minds of Japanese artists, judging by the average nun outfit design in non-ecchi anime.

Wouldn't that suggest then that, rather than a nontraditional nun tag, we should instead make a traditional nun tag? Because regardless, the point is to make it easier to find traditional nuns. If traditional ninja can be a tag, so too could this.

Now that you mention it, it really does seem like a good idea to make a traditional nun tag instead, i'm not exactly willing to brush through the hundreds of nun search pages to find those myself, nor make a wiki for it, especially as i'm not even familiar with actual traditional outfits shown in the link provided by @Pokeball99 , but if anyone is, they should go ahead

Most/all Little Nuns (Diva) would qualify, no? Unless their bangs showing makes them nontraditional - covering hair fully is a custom for most if not all denominations.

KagayakuShiningGate said:

Most/all Little Nuns (Diva) would qualify, no? Unless their bangs showing makes them nontraditional - covering hair fully is a custom for most if not all denominations.

I would imagine there'd be some leniency when it comes to traditionalism, especially with context in mind. You could easily imagine that they're supposed to have all their hair covered, ala Mother Superior and Star Nun, but since most of them are quite young, their hair just sort of pops out and remains uncorrected (as well as, you know, making them distinguishable from a design perspective).

If you were to go 100% traditional, I feel like the tag would probably become even more narrow than intended, especially given the differences between habits among denominations. If we consider Catholicism specifically, from what I can tell, since the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s, and especially the 1976 declaration on the admission of women to the ministerial priesthood, Inter Insigniores (under section 4, paragraph 3), head coverings were no longer binding. This story from 2010 based in Florida discusses how some sisters have abandoned the habit altogether, and others asking which orders still wear them in the first place - and that's specifically in that context, I can only imagine how other Catholic sisters elsewhere have decided to handle the fact that habits were no longer mandatory. So yeah, leniency is to some extent required, and Little Nuns (Diva) would almost entirely be a perfect fit for the new tag.

There's also the fact that the traditional nun tag is supposed to help find posts with nuns dressed like actual nuns among all the pelvic curtains , breast curtains and such, even if the real-life hair covering was really strict it would kinda defeat the purpose of the new tag to nitpick on such a minor deviation

BUR #15879 has been rejected.

nuke traditional_nun

Yeah no, we're not doing this shit again. Please wait for consensus before creating tags like these again. One day of discussion with two users replying is not enough to start creating a tag that would possibly overlap with 99% of nun.

It's getting tiresome to see potentially terrible tags created overnight and getting into the thousands (female child) before anyone can say anything.

At a minimum let's put to the vote if the tag stays or not, instead of just having a single user mass populate it without consensus.

I can understand the reluctance, but I don't think one could deny the potential usefulness of the tag. Genuinely, tagging even 1k without relying on Little Nuns for the majority of it was a struggle, because the vast, vast majority of nun attire on the site would not be considered traditional, whether it be due to the dress being cut too short, side slits, cutouts of various kinds, depictions wearing racy lingerie, etc. and that's not even getting into the overly sexualized versions.

If the tag gets nuked, so be it though.

I think a traditional nun could be useful to tell apart more closely resembling real life nuns as opposed to the the more raunchy/fantasy stuff but yeah I can see it turning into a mess of people not agreeing where to draw the line for what can be considered traditional (e.g. does the full-length zipper in Sister Cleaire's default outfit disqualifies if for traditional nun despite being pretty much what you consider a traditional nun outfit in every other aspect?.

I'm fine with the BUR going either way.

Damian0358 said:

I can understand the reluctance, but I don't think one could deny the potential usefulness of the tag. Genuinely, tagging even 1k without relying on Little Nuns for the majority of it was a struggle, because the vast, vast majority of nun attire on the site would not be considered traditional, whether it be due to the dress being cut too short, side slits, cutouts of various kinds, depictions wearing racy lingerie, etc. and that's not even getting into the overly sexualized versions.

If the tag gets nuked, so be it though.

I'm definitely on the side of keeping the tag, though I understand the reluctance as well.

Still, I feel like the matter of what and what is not considered a traditional nun can be agreed upon over a few days of discussion then codified in the tag's wiki, similar to the relatively loose set of qualifications in the miko tag (i.e. a hakama skirt (almost always entirely red) and white kosode.)

As a suggestion, it could be as relatively simple as requiring a habit's veil and a long_dress with long_sleeves. As there are nuns with dresses other than black (blue and white being prominent), I don't think a black dress is required.

Ai-to-Yukai said:

As a suggestion, it could be as relatively simple as requiring a habit's veil and a long_dress with long_sleeves. As there are nuns with dresses other than black (blue and white being prominent), I don't think a black dress is required.

Definitely agree on long dress with long sleeves - no cut-offs, no cut-outs, no side slits, etc - but I was personally thinking on being loose on requiring a habit or veil for reasons mentioned already. When I was tagging the tag, I did concentrate for the most part on black dresses since that is the most common color, but white and blue would definitely be valid candidates as well.

But we can't have the requirements be too simple - I feel that if there's only one or two elements added to the basic design, it's ultimately fine (so Sister Cleaire's zipper isn't too much of a problem, same with simple designs added to the habit proper, as seen with Double as one example), but once the elements added detract too much from the design, then it shouldn't count. We can look to Toaru Majutsu no Index as an example here. The Agnese Sanctis' nun attire, or at least the variant with a longer wholly black dress, would qualify under leniency rules in my opinion. The cross doesn't detract too much from the basic nun design, and the slit on the side showing the underdress complements rather than detracts from the traditional nun aesthetic (ex. post #2468973). In contrast, Index's nun attire in my opinion detracts too much from the traditional design, looking more akin to a fantasy mage (ex. post #3144518, post #1984080). Specter is a similar example of this. An emphasis on the basics of the design is crucial.

Additionally, I think a concerted effort to keep nuns with lingerie out of the tag would also be important. I imagine that there is some truth to, say, nuns in the past wearing garter straps, thighhighs, and other assorted undergarments, but these days they are used as a means of overtly sexualizing the design, especially depending on the type and style of the undergarment, and the perspective taken to depict it. For reasons like that, some of Sister Cleaire's posts don't qualify in my eyes (ex. post #4300317 [E]), and similar posts that are in the nun tag (though thankfully the vast majority of such posts also have side slits, so they're already out) .

Damian0358 said:

But we can't have the requirements be too simple - I feel that if there's only one or two elements added to the basic design, it's ultimately fine (so Sister Cleaire's zipper isn't too much of a problem, same with simple designs added to the habit proper, as seen with Double as one example), but once the elements added detract too much from the design, then it shouldn't count. We can look to Toaru Majutsu no Index as an example here. The Agnese Sanctis' nun attire, or at least the variant with a longer wholly black dress, would qualify under leniency rules in my opinion. The cross doesn't detract too much from the basic nun design, and the slit on the side showing the underdress complements rather than detracts from the traditional nun aesthetic (ex. post #2468973). In contrast, Index's nun attire in my opinion detracts too much from the traditional design, looking more akin to a fantasy mage (ex. post #3144518, post #1984080). Specter is a similar example of this. An emphasis on the basics of the design is crucial.

For the most part agreed. Certain additions are certainly acceptable, like a tabard isn't wholly out of the question as it features in Nun attire such as that found on a Sister of the Incarnate Word or a Sister of the Immaculate. Even side slits (to reveal another dress such as the aforementioned Agnes Saints) exist to a degree on some habits.

Damian0358 said:

Additionally, I think a concerted effort to keep nuns with lingerie out of the tag would also be important. I imagine that there is some truth to, say, nuns in the past wearing garter straps, thighhighs, and other assorted undergarments, but these days they are used as a means of overtly sexualizing the design, especially depending on the type and style of the undergarment, and the perspective taken to depict it. For reasons like that, some of Sister Cleaire's posts don't qualify in my eyes (ex. post #4300317 [E]), and similar posts that are in the nun tag (though thankfully the vast majority of such posts also have side slits, so they're already out) .

Agreed. There's a certain degree of modesty that's to be adhered to when it comes to nun outfits. Sister Cleaire's original design qualifies in my eyes despite having a garter belt because it's used for its intended purpose and maintains the general "spirit" of a traditional nun outfit. Contrastingly, I hesitate with a later fanart of the same design, on the grounds of how tight the outfit is here and the reduced length of the skirt

I think having a traditional_nun tag could be useful, but I also can see it being misused or used in such a way that it defeats the purpose of the tag. The wiki says

some degree of modesty must be adhered to (ex. not too tight-fitting, no cutouts, no side slits which reveal skin or undergarment, no overtly sexual depictions of certain undergarments, etc).

but I'm already seeing posts like post #6060590 (outfit is tight and puts an emphasis on the breasts) or post #6140019 (tight, has side slits) using the tag- actually a lot of posts having very form-fitting depictions which a traditional nun would not wear in real life.
Nuns are highly sexualized in media in general, and I'm wondering where the line is supposed to be drawn here, especially since some posts that get added to the tag would have to be questioned on their validity since there are acceptions to the rule, as pointed out by other people in this thread.
I just see the tag losing it's purpose very quickly.

m4rs said:

post #6140019 (tight, has side slits)

The line says "no side slits which reveal skin or undergarment" and that post features neither (it just looks like another dress layer), so the only sexualization issue with it is the dress being form fitting.

I think the tag should just focus on the general design of the outfit. I'm not sure how much the tag would even cover besides little nuns (diva) if most things were excluded just for also being tagged breasts. Yes, the actual irl usage of the outfit is to hide the wearer's form, but that seems like a tall order for most artists. If I cared about finding "traditional nuns" I'm probably just looking for an outfit that isn't covered in slits and cleavage and cutouts, not hyper-fixating on how inaccurate it is that this H-Cup anime girl's breasts are still visible through the dress.

blindVigil said:

The line says "no side slits which reveal skin or undergarment" and that post features neither (it just looks like another dress layer), so the only sexualization issue with it is the dress being form fitting.

Oh, sorry about that. I didn't catch that when I was reading it.

Yeah, as blindVigil says. While the point of tightness is absolutely worth discussing, since it'll probably be the hardest thing to adjust in terms of leniency (like, I imagine some folks are just not aware of how loose nun habits can be), aside from that tightness (and what that tightness may entail), something like post #6060590 fundamentally still looks like a traditional nun outfit, in contrast to something like post #5990720 (Q). Like, taking Double as an example, I'd consider post #1897609 fine, but not post #5769198.

Damian0358 said:

Yeah, as blindVigil says. While the point of tightness is absolutely worth discussing, since it'll probably be the hardest thing to adjust in terms of leniency (like, I imagine some folks are just not aware of how loose nun habits can be), aside from that tightness (and what that tightness may entail), something like post #6060590 fundamentally still looks like a traditional nun outfit, in contrast to something like post #5990720 (Q).

one solution could be making something like form fitting habit and saying traditional nun is mutually exclusive to that? or some variant of a mutually exclusive tag

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