Add "upload as deleted" checkmark to upload page

nyom said:

I'm already posting as much as is within my capacity, I can't tag hundreds of images all on my own every day for years. Why is it bad to want others to prioritize archiving high quality artwork before it disappears over subpar or bad artwork as well, if Danbooru is supposed to be a gallery of high quality art?

That's it none of us can, so what I'm saying is that it's not people uploading sketches instead of those twitter posts but instead people uploading instead of something else that may or may not be to your taste or standard. I realistically think that people aren't going to go out of their way to find and upload sub-par art, but it's more stuff caught with other images like bonus sketches or one piece in a log that just looks off compared to the rest.

Approvers+ can bypass the queue to manually delete posts, but this is supposed to be reserved for extreme cases like
-spam
-really off-topic stuff
-rule-breaking stuff

If Contributors+ had the ability to delete their own uploads, shouldn't it be subject to the same criteria? So not just "I don't think it's good enough" but extremely crappy stuff you weren't planning on uploading anyhow.

Just upload to the queue and let nature take its course. That's what the "Upload for approval" checkbox is there for.

zetsubousensei said:

That's it none of us can, so what I'm saying is that it's not people uploading sketches instead of those twitter posts but instead people uploading instead of something else that may or may not be to your taste or standard. I realistically think that people aren't going to go out of their way to find and upload sub-par art, but it's more stuff caught with other images like bonus sketches or one piece in a log that just looks off compared to the rest.

Time spent tagging a deletable post is time that could be dedicated to tagging and thus making a good post searchable instead. Those bonus sketches and off-looking pieces can just stay in assets, they aren't gonna go anywhere from there. Of course it's not a given that whatever else people may post instead is going to be something I like, but at least it's not going to be something that even they think is not worthy of being in status:active.

Personally I like this idea, would make it easier to archive art especially for less popular series and characters

It seems like some of you are not understanding just how much of a problem something like this could be for the site.

Let's keep in mind that this proposal was made for the benefit of regular users. That is, those that are subject to upload limits and the modqueue. The only way it would be possible to give them the benefits they want is to allow them to upload deleted posts without using any of their slots. As a result, every member can now become an Anti-Contributor. In other words, a user with uploading privileges equal to a Contributor, but only for posts they choose to delete.

I already explained that a troll could upload a bunch of shitposts. This is in fact very likely to happen since we have a few persistent trolls continually making new accounts. If the mods are unable to ban the troll quickly, the upload limit will prevent that account from shitposting. They could still make another account, but it would take more effort on their end.

However, there is another way to abuse the system. A user may upload a bunch of posts that are of decent quality but mark them as deleted so they can exceed their upload limit. If someone else comes across it, they won't be able to upload it and send it to the modqueue, meaning it is less likely to be seen by Approvers. So either Approvers will need to go out of their way to find and approve them, or more honest users will need to use three of their own upload slots to appeal them.

What if we add a penalty? If a deleted upload takes up one slot like it would if it went through the modqueue, then it would give some level of protection against bad faith mass uploads. However, the uploader will not be given lower penalties then what the system currently imposes, so it won't actually make things easier for them. The only way to give the regular users the benefits they want is to completely break our checks and balances.

If it's only provided to Contributors and above, then the penalty issue becomes moot since they have unlimited uploads anyway. Thus, the only benefit would be reducing the burden on Approvers, but the change in the number of posts in the modqueue would likely be insignificant unless the Contributors are uploading a large amount of low-quality posts, which they shouldn't be doing anyway.

Ultimately, allowing such a feature would undermine our methods of managing the flow of bad uploads and/or push the burden on someone else. At the very least, it should not be made available to users below Contributor level.

If you've reached contributor you need to have a spine and stand by what you upload. I would even argue that "Upload for approval" needs to actually be removed while relaxing the limits for flagging, encourage every user to flag what they think is low quality and potentially promote them if they get enough garbage deleted.

nyom said:

I'm already posting as much as is within my capacity, I can't tag hundreds of images all on my own every day for years. Why is it bad to want others to prioritize archiving high quality artwork before it disappears over subpar or bad artwork as well, if Danbooru is supposed to be a gallery of high quality art? And just because saving 100% of art is infeasible, doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to archive as much of good art as possible.

You need to get over the mental barrier of thinking that a solo character post needs 30 general tags. The years (over a decade at this point) of general tag inflation have really caused priorities to be misplaced. Seeking out and uploading (properly sourced, including the best available third-party sources) art, occasionally from complete obscurity, is already laborious so you can delegate tagging all the asymmetrical-semi-rimless-frilled-garter-straps_(nonsexual) to someone else with complete peace of mind.

This proposed feature is a good example of misplaced priorities. People seemingly want to send something they think is inadequate (but meticulously tagged, of course) straight into status:deleted. For what? Who will ever look for or find these posts? Meanwhile, Minitokyo seems to have finally died. Did anyone bother archiving all the high quality scans that were unique to that site? Or were they reluctant, believing that their posts would go unapproved for lacking general tags that functionally no one searches for?

Hereinafter said:

You need to get over the mental barrier of thinking that a solo character post needs 30 general tags. The years (over a decade at this point) of general tag inflation have really caused priorities to be misplaced. Seeking out and uploading (properly sourced, including the best available third-party sources) art, occasionally from complete obscurity, is already laborious so you can delegate tagging all the asymmetrical-semi-rimless-frilled-garter-straps_(nonsexual) to someone else with complete peace of mind.

This proposed feature is a good example of misplaced priorities. People seemingly want to send something they think is inadequate (but meticulously tagged, of course) straight into status:deleted. For what? Who will ever look for or find these posts? Meanwhile, Minitokyo seems to have finally died. Did anyone bother archiving all the high quality scans that were unique to that site? Or were they reluctant, believing that their posts would go unapproved for lacking general tags that functionally no one searches for?

For hell's sake, dude, even if I only put the most basic 10 gentags on a post before moving onto the next one, it won't help me make more of a dent in my backlog of soon to be 400k likes on Twitter alone, nevermind the other stuff from all the other various art platforms out there. I want us, as a collective, to dedicate the limited people resources we have to tagging the best works first before moving onto other stuff. Even if we can't preserve all the art out there, I think we should try to preserve as much good art as possible. Why do you guys keep missing the point so hard?

nyom said:

For hell's sake, dude, even if I only put the most basic 10 gentags on a post before moving onto the next one, it won't help me make more of a dent in my backlog of soon to be 400k likes on Twitter alone, nevermind the other stuff from all the other various art platforms out there. I want us, as a collective, to dedicate the limited people resources we have to tagging the best works first before moving onto other stuff. Even if we can't preserve all the art out there, I think we should try to preserve as much good art as possible. Why do you guys keep missing the point so hard?

Because you keep bringing up tagging when what you seem to actually mean is that we should focus more on uploading based on the quality of individual posts rather than set completeness. Also, we're a volunteer-driven site. To get everyone working toward the same goal is asking too much. The best you can hope for is to attract like-minded users to help you out. But most users are going to continue doing their own thing.

nyom said:

For hell's sake, dude, even if I only put the most basic 10 gentags on a post before moving onto the next one, it won't help me make more of a dent in my backlog of soon to be 400k likes on Twitter alone, nevermind the other stuff from all the other various art platforms out there. I want us, as a collective, to dedicate the limited people resources we have to tagging the best works first before moving onto other stuff. Even if we can't preserve all the art out there, I think we should try to preserve as much good art as possible. Why do you guys keep missing the point so hard?

I was addressing what you expressed as a personal frustration. If you use less general tags, you can increase the amount of posts you archive on a personal basis. If you choose to frame everything as hopeless and pointless because of the sheer scope of it then there's no point in even expressing these frustrations, because you're not looking for any practical solutions, even incremental ones that can alleviate them.

On a collective basis, you will never be able to control what people do and do not do on a site that's designed they way this one is, this is not a professional effort and extant quality standards do not emphasize complete archival of only high quality art. You can only hope that a sufficiently large contingent of people remain around who care about that and also put the effort in.

Blank_User said:

It seems like some of you are not understanding just how much of a problem something like this could be for the site.

Let's keep in mind that this proposal was made for the benefit of regular users. That is, those that are subject to upload limits and the modqueue. The only way it would be possible to give them the benefits they want is to allow them to upload deleted posts without using any of their slots. As a result, every member can now become an Anti-Contributor. In other words, a user with uploading privileges equal to a Contributor, but only for posts they choose to delete.

I already explained that a troll could upload a bunch of shitposts. This is in fact very likely to happen since we have a few persistent trolls continually making new accounts. If the mods are unable to ban the troll quickly, the upload limit will prevent that account from shitposting. They could still make another account, but it would take more effort on their end.

However, there is another way to abuse the system. A user may upload a bunch of posts that are of decent quality but mark them as deleted so they can exceed their upload limit. If someone else comes across it, they won't be able to upload it and send it to the modqueue, meaning it is less likely to be seen by Approvers. So either Approvers will need to go out of their way to find and approve them, or more honest users will need to use three of their own upload slots to appeal them.

What if we add a penalty? If a deleted upload takes up one slot like it would if it went through the modqueue, then it would give some level of protection against bad faith mass uploads. However, the uploader will not be given lower penalties then what the system currently imposes, so it won't actually make things easier for them. The only way to give the regular users the benefits they want is to completely break our checks and balances.

If it's only provided to Contributors and above, then the penalty issue becomes moot since they have unlimited uploads anyway. Thus, the only benefit would be reducing the burden on Approvers, but the change in the number of posts in the modqueue would likely be insignificant unless the Contributors are uploading a large amount of low-quality posts, which they shouldn't be doing anyway.

Ultimately, allowing such a feature would undermine our methods of managing the flow of bad uploads and/or push the burden on someone else. At the very least, it should not be made available to users below Contributor level.

You could add perms for that to users who have been here a while but aren't necessarily contributors (And OFC I'd suggest fully-deleting offtopic shit like random memes or whatever)

Iseseith said:

Personally I like this idea, would make it easier to archive art especially for less popular series and characters

Why do you believe that art of less popular series and characters must be deleted?

viliml said:

Why do you believe that art of less popular series and characters must be deleted?

Let me rephrase, Some less popular series and characters have some art that isn't persay to standards but should still be preserved, and given there's less art of them over all that's why I mention them specifically.

Iseseith said:

Let me rephrase, Some less popular series and characters have some art that isn't persay to standards but should still be preserved, and given there's less art of them over all that's why I mention them specifically.

I agree it would be good to preserve them, but why here? Aren't there other boorus that would welcome images like that?

Despite wanting to answer, I am going to ignore the discussion on tagging, because it goes beyond the scope of this thread.

Blank_User said:

It seems like some of you are not understanding just how much of a problem something like this could be for the site.

Let's keep in mind that this proposal was made for the benefit of regular users. That is, those that are subject to upload limits and the modqueue.

This was made both to benefit users and approvers, by letting sub-contrib users automoderate themselves.

The only way it would be possible to give them the benefits they want is to allow them to upload deleted posts without using any of their slots.

That's not what I was saying at all.
My idea was to let such deletions still take an upload slot, however it wouldn't count towards the calculation of upload limit or contrib promotion.

unless the Contributors are uploading a large amount of low-quality posts, which they shouldn't be doing anyway.

You seem to be under the misconception that all deleted posts are "low-quality".
Just look at the examples I posted beforehand - they have a style, they are ornate, they definitely are Something.
And again, I don't think they should be approved, but I also think that they're at least "mid-quality".

(Conversely, not all approved posts are "high-quality". Heavily stylized artworks such as post #6914843 are not something I would approve, but to each their own and all that.)

I agree it would be good to preserve them, but why here? Aren't there other boorus that would welcome images like that?

...Centralization? As a user looking up artworks, I doubt I would try to look up other boorus in order to find the one that has the artworks I seek.

(Another option would be, for example, to give the feature to users who have at least 100 approved posts, or have at least X upload slots, in order to avoid spammers making fresh accounts just to dump off-topic pics)

Login_to_view said:

That's not what I was saying at all.
My idea was to let such deletions still take an upload slot, however it wouldn't count towards the calculation of upload limit or contrib promotion.

To be honest, as much as I like the idea, I think it's not worth the hassle trying to figure something out that would work for res users. In the end, you'll just end up with a bunch of restrictions, and I think you can just skip some steps and only make it available to unres.

You seem to be under the misconception that all deleted posts are "low-quality".
Just look at the examples I posted beforehand - they have a style, they are ornate, they definitely are Something.
And again, I don't think they should be approved, but I also think that they're at least "mid-quality".

(Conversely, not all approved posts are "high-quality". Heavily stylized artworks such as post #6914843 are not something I would approve, but to each their own and all that.)

...Centralization? As a user looking up artworks, I doubt I would try to look up other boorus in order to find the one that has the artworks I seek.

I fully agree with these points. A lot of things on the site already aren't "high quality" in the traditional sense, but widely accepted (if you think this is not the case I advise you to maybe use the site for once, instead of arguing on the forums). Along with these kinds of stylized arts come many artists that aren't quite good enough, but still exhibit many of the same positive features, and it'd be great to be able to properly archive them, instead of having to keep a list of asset IDs.

Media assets are the general dumping ground. That's the entire reason why they were made browsable. I think allowing users to directly upload deleted posts would be terrible, there's too many people even at contributor level who would just start dumping tons of horrible shit with no self-control.

Blank_User said:

I understand wanting to populate underrepresented copyrights and characters on Danbooru. Unfortunately, some copyrights and characters just don't have a lot of good art out there. But that doesn't justify uploading them here. We're not the only imageboard out there. Surely there are other places you can preserve those works.

Iseseith said:

Personally I like this idea, would make it easier to archive art especially for less popular series and characters. Some less popular series and characters have some art that isn't persay to standards but should still be preserved, and given there's less art of them over all that's why I mention them specifically.

Blank_User said:

I agree it would be good to preserve them, but why here? Aren't there other boorus that would welcome images like that?

Login_to_view said:

...Centralization? As a user looking up artworks, I doubt I would try to look up other boorus in order to find the one that has the artworks I seek.

This isn't relevant to the discussion at hand, but discussing Danbooru with non-users made me realize something: one of the reasons why other boorus end up getting praised over Danbooru is because they are seen as less restrictive and more diverse in uploads, without realizing that a) the vast majority of uploads on Gelbooru are actually Danbooru reuploads (I don't know the numbers of Sankaku but I imagine a lot of it makes it up there too, same with other general boorus which scrape us); b) the very fact a) is the case allows people on other boorus that scrape from Danbooru to focus on different artists because the ones they'd upload from otherwise are already uploaded via Danbooru; and c) there's tons of niche stuff that isn't on other boorus already due to incomplete scraping, see Gelbooru's relationship with Danbooru's comic tag.

All of this is to say, the only reason why Danbooru is 'less diverse' is because people decide to upload 'downstream' onto other general boorus rather than brave the queue here and become part of Danbooru's community.

I only mention this because I think there's a missed opportunity here in trying to 'archive' art that's currently stuck only on other boorus, especially Sankaku (with its hypocritical anti-scraping bullshit), since then that site would have even less of a reason to exist. Note that even having them all dumped in media assets would be preferable over not saving them somewhere on site (possibly paired with an archive on the Wayback Machine for source's sake).

Login_to_view said:

That's not what I was saying at all.
My idea was to let such deletions still take an upload slot, however it wouldn't count towards the calculation of upload limit or contrib promotion.

That would've been something I would've made clear at the start when proposing something like this.

That would provide a less harsh penalty than the system currently gives, though I think its use should still be counted towards promotion. If someone overuses it, it's a sign they should not be promoted.

You seem to be under the misconception that all deleted posts are "low-quality".
Just look at the examples I posted beforehand - they have a style, they are ornate, they definitely are Something.
And again, I don't think they should be approved, but I also think that they're at least "mid-quality".

(Conversely, not all approved posts are "high-quality". Heavily stylized artworks such as post #6914843 are not something I would approve, but to each their own and all that.)

I am fully aware that not all deleted posts are low-quality, some high-quality uploads may fall through the cracks, and some posts may be approved too quickly. The point I was making was that if it were made available only to Contributors, it would only have a meaningful effect on the modqueue if they used the feature frequently. Contributors are expected to upload posts that meet site standards, so if they're uploading a lot of posts that they know don't meet those standards, then something is very wrong.

ANON_TOKYO said:

A lot of things on the site already aren't "high quality" in the traditional sense, but widely accepted (if you think this is not the case I advise you to maybe use the site for once, instead of arguing on the forums).

Just because I'm not a power uploader like a lot of other Contributors doesn't mean I don't use the site or that I'm not aware of the varying quality of both active and deleted posts. My activity on this site was down lately due to a combination of a couple of busy work weeks and my involvement with other preservation projects outside of Danbooru. I still use the site almost every day to maintain certain tags and keep up-to-date on current events.

nonamethanks said:

Media assets are the general dumping ground. That's the entire reason why they were made browsable. I think allowing users to directly upload deleted posts would be terrible, there's too many people even at contributor level who would just start dumping tons of horrible shit with no self-control.

I know that asking moderators to micromanage everyone is neither feasible nor a good approach, but I feel like it happens more often than it needs to that features/permissions get taken away from everyone, when shouting at the few people abusing it might also solve it. Another example is approvers being able to do replacements.

Blank_User said:

Just because I'm not a power uploader like a lot of other Contributors doesn't mean I don't use the site or that I'm not aware of the varying quality of both active and deleted posts. My activity on this site was down lately due to a combination of a couple of busy work weeks and my involvement with other preservation projects outside of Danbooru. I still use the site almost every day to maintain certain tags and keep up-to-date on current events.

That wasn't directed at you, just at the inevitable person who was going to make a claim that can be disproved by looking at the site for 5 seconds. Those unfortunately are very common.

That said, I don't really see the "it won't impact the modqueue that much" as a proper reason not to do it. It's more about getting the go-ahead to actually archive these posts properly, instead of 1) not doing it or 2) sending the posts to queue and hope nobody will shout at you over the deletions.