Kage-Jitsu/The Eminence in Shadow Qualifier Shortening

BUR #50296 has been rejected.

I came across this series when I was browsing the front page. I noticed that the characters' qualifier is rather long, so I asked at Danbooru Discord server about what its short title, and here's the BUR to fix the qualifier.

Keep in mind that I know nothing about this series, so apologies if I missed something.

BUR #50297 has been rejected.

rename shadow_(cid_kagenou) -> cid_kagenou_(shadow)

Doing this separately as this one is different from above.

The folks over at the server also mentioned that this tag's name should have been reversed.

VR-Man said:

BUR #50297 has been rejected.

rename shadow_(cid_kagenou) -> cid_kagenou_(shadow)

Doing this separately as this one is different from above.

The folks over at the server also mentioned that this tag's name should have been reversed.

that's like changing batman to bruce wayne (batman)

The bulk update request #50297 (forum #397055) has been rejected by @VR-Man.

trapster77 said:

that's like changing batman to bruce wayne (batman)

Fine. Make your own BUR then.

The bulk update request #50296 (forum #397054) has been rejected by @VR-Man.

VR-Man said:

Fine. Make your own BUR then.

? to give some context the character called minoru kageno reincarnated in another world where he mainly acts under a batman-like identity called shadow. his "real" identity that barely matters when he isn't kicking ass is called cid kagenou

you can think of it as changing ainz ooal gown to momonga (ainz ooal gown)

Cid Kagenou

Shadow (Cid Kagenou)

John Smith (Cid Kagenou)

These qualifiers are long, horribly unwieldy and terrible on the sidebar. If there's a commonly used shorthand for a series that has a title too long, a qualifier can help improve the search and sidebar visuals. The BUR should've stayed up so it could be voted on; don't reject it over one disagreement before anyone else has the chance to weigh in, please. At least that way alternate options can be pitched.

trapster77 said:

that's like changing batman to bruce wayne (batman) (forum #397055)

you can think of it as changing ainz ooal gown to momonga (ainz ooal gown) (forum #397062)

These are not remotely similar cases. In the case of Batman, superhero/magical girl/etc identities have established precedent to remain separate from their civilian personalities. In the case of Ainz Ooal Gown, "Momonga" is not a different person, identity or anything of the sort, it is the previous name of the exact same person, so without getting deeper into why this doesn't make sense, the tag name itself would be wrong in the first place.

Shadow (Cid Kagenou) is wrong because the qualifier is backwards. Characters are their name qualified by their variant or costume. In this case, Shadow (Cid Kagenou) is not a literal alternate persona, he is still the same person wearing his Shadow Garden uniform. For all intents and purposes, to the average person looking at the character tag, they're the same person in different costumes.

If they were to remain separate, "Cid Kagenou" should not be the qualifier, but "Shadow" is ambiguous, so it would need to match the qualifiers of other ambiguous characters in the series. So, irrespective of whether they should be implied or remain separate depending on what precedent is invoked, the tag name is still wrong.

BUR #50301 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

rename shadow_(cid_kagenou) -> cid_kagenou_(shadow)
rename john_smith_(cid_kagenou) -> cid_kagenou_(john_smith)
rename mundane_mann_(cid_kagenou) -> cid_kagenou_(mundane_mann)

Restarting this BUR and also establishing implications because people searching for Cid Kagenou should also be able to find Shadow (Cid Kagenou) easily. His tag is already being used this way and it's clear that people searching aren't immediately going to search "Shadow" when you have posts like post #8236515 in cid_kagenou -shadow_(cid_kagenou). Most people I know just call him "Cid" anyway regardless of what "persona" he's acting as.

WRS said:

Shadow (Cid Kagenou) is wrong because the qualifier is backwards. Characters are their name qualified by their variant or costume.

i don't disagree with this, but the problem is that Shadow (Cid Kagenou) and John Smith (Cid Kagenou) aren't "costumes". the character is literally called shadow. everyone in the anime calls him shadow. everyone in the fanbase calls him shadow.

in fact i'm pretty sure "shadow" is more common than "cid kagenou" in kagejitsu discussions just like "batman" is more common than "bruce wayne".

in the john smith arc he also calls himself john smith with different voice and probably even different height/body build because he can shapeshift with magic or something like that

also i just remembered he had a FOURTH persona called "Mundane Mann" (or Jimina Seinen)

https://www.pixiv.net/artworks/115083088

basically if sailor moon and tsukino usagi were qualified do you think it would be tsukino usagi (sailor moon) or sailor moon (tsukino usagi)?

A lot of implicated character tags aren't "costumes" but the distinction is largely irrelevant for Danbooru purposes without a substantial reason to keep them separate. They look like costume tags to me. They look like costume tags to people who don't know a thing about the series. I look at post #10232340 and post #7616563 and see the exact same person in a hooded coat. I'm sure if I had a hood down example I would be even more inclined to say the same thing.

Either the qualifier is fixed to be in proper order which then also begets an implication, or the qualifier is changed to the series qualifier and they remain separate with a good enough reason why that can be approached by the average person. If they were actually different people in some way or another, it might make sense - but Cid Kagenou and his adjacent tags are close enough to appearing like the same person that it doesn't make sense for them to be separate. The current tagging already matches what the implication/qualifier reorder would do.

basically if sailor moon and tsukino usagi were qualified do you think it would be tsukino usagi (sailor moon) or sailor moon (tsukino usagi)?

This doesn't become any more relevant because Cid doesn't fall under either of the existing precedents. Explain why you would invoke them.

WRS said:

A lot of implicated character tags on Danbooru aren't "costumes" but the distinction is largely irrelevant for Danbooru purposes without a substantial reason to keep them separate. They look like costume tags to me. They look like costume tags to people who don't know a thing about the series. I look at post #10232340 and post #7616563 and see the exact same person in a hooded coat.

There is no problem. Either the qualifier is fixed to be in proper order which then also begets an implication, or the qualifier is changed to the series qualifier and they remain separate with a good enough reason why that can be approached by the average person. If they were actually different people in some way or another, it might make sense - but Cid Kagenou and his adjacent tags are close enough to appearing like the same person that it doesn't make sense for them to be separate.

i'm not saying Cid Kagenou doesn't look like Shadow (Cid Kagenou) (although the same can't be said about the other personas). what i'm saying is that the character isn't called cid kagenou just like nobody calls Kirito by the name of Kirigaya Kazuto

i'm struggling to think of examples of characters that have multiple personas with different names to see how danbooru handled these in the past. pretty much everything i look for like sailor moon and Tsukino Usagi isn't even qualified. i guess the real problem is that "shadow" is a common word and "john smith" is a common name

that's why i said to imagine if you made batman become bruce wayne (batman). you are putting the name nobody uses in front of the tag. even on pixiv like on the post i linked people tag him just シャドウ sometimes

Are you by any chance confused at how we use qualifiers? Tags are for searching and a qualifier is for disambiguating; for the same character, it is to denote a costume or alternate form to disambiguate it from their main tag. I also don't know what circles you're in but I've seen "Cid" and more especially "Shadow" (due to primarily following the Shadow Garden cast) used interchangeably. Members of Shadow Garden still call Cid Kagenou "Shadow" even in his academy uniform in the source material itself. I don't know where you're getting all this "that name isn't used" from.

BUR #50304 has been approved by @evazion.

In any case, I digress regarding Cid Kagenou, shortening characters with existing qualifiers should at least be done and they should be aliases rather than renames. The chibi spin-off shares the same short name as the main series. I'm going with the way MyAnimeList stylises the chibi anime's without a hyphen because it's better to type.

WRS said:

Are you by any chance confused at how we use qualifiers? Tags are for searching and a qualifier is for disambiguating; for the same character, it is to denote a costume or alternate form to disambiguate it from their main tag. I also don't know what circles you're in but I've seen "Cid" and more especially "Shadow" (due to primarily following the Shadow Garden cast) used interchangeably. Members of Shadow Garden still call Cid Kagenou "Shadow" even in his academy uniform in the source material itself. I don't know where you're getting all this "that name isn't used" from.

like i said, i don't disagree with this stance for costumes/forms. the problem is that shadow isn't a costume/form. it's a different name. so i don't think this case should be conflated with the rest.

as for disambiguation... i also don't think the linked article really applies to this situation

Alternate forms of characters

Examples: hatsune_miku_(append) / saigyouji_yuyuko_(living)

in this case, if you didn't tag hatsune miku (append), then the tag would be hatsune miku and it would be ambiguous which form of the character is supposed to be on the image so the qualifier is used to resolve that ambiguity

in this case we already have the Shadow "form" tagged separately from Cig Kagenou so it's not ambiguous which form it is. the ambiguity is just that "Shadow" is already a word for a different thing, shadow (lack of light). so imo it's only necessary to disambiguate which shadow we're talking about, since the form of the character is already unambiguous as it's called by a completely different name

You're being incredibly esoteric about what you want here by trying to complicate the situation with details that don't matter to an imageboard. Yes, "Shadow" is an alias that he uses, and what? That doesn't change anything here. Be explicitly clear about what you're looking to do or write a counter BUR if the problem is the tag names otherwise I don't understand what you're getting at. Costume, form, name, persona, whatever, that doesn't actually matter. The problem is the lack of implication and the qualifier order.

The only reason these characters are "tagged separately" (and I don't understand if you mean they have different character tags or that they aren't joined together) is because there were no such BUR attempts or other forum discussions about this before. If you go look at any of the posts in practice though, both tags are always applied when the single guy is in frame.

This far into this debate and I think you're still missing the core point that the qualifier order is wrong regardless. Either it gets qualified by the series name or it adopts the proper ordering; and there is no strong justification as to why these tags should remain independent when this is how we handle every single other character on this site that doesn't follow an existing precedent. Cid Kagenou does not have a split civilian/superhero identity; he is still at all times the "Shadow Garden guy" as far as the reader's following of the characters is concerned.

The bulk update request #50304 (forum #397113) has been approved by @evazion.

BUR #50357 has been rejected.

rename i_am_atomic_(meme) -> i_am_atomic

btw since we're on the topic anyway i don't think this needs a qualifier since it's not even a meme, it's just the guy's special attack like in post #9033110 which could be tagged with i am atomic but isn't

i found some mundane mann (cid kagenou) pics and tried upping them post #10237778 and post #10237802. don't have a lot of faith it will get approved but at least now there is we got a tag for all fours forms

word order regardless how do you make Shadow (Cid Kagenou) appear "nested" below Cid Kagenou? is it by implication or do i need something else?

trapster77 said:

word order regardless how do you make Shadow (Cid Kagenou) appear "nested" below Cid Kagenou? is it by implication or do i need something else?

Yes, it's by implication.

BUR #50362 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

create implication shadow_(cid_kagenou) -> cid_kagenou
create implication john_smith_(cid_kagenou) -> cid_kagenou
create implication mundane_mann_(cid_kagenou) -> cid_kagenou

like this?