Where's Okuu?

So Okuu/Tenshi are fighting Sakuya/Suika?
Great. They're going to lose to the most boring team in the tournament.

Maybe Suika will go "f that, I'm too busy having fun" and leave Sakuya frustrated and alone?

Zaku_Zelo said:
So Okuu/Tenshi are fighting Sakuya/Suika?
Great. They're going to lose to the most boring team in the tournament.

At least Sakuya/Suika don't have to fight Yuugi/Orin. Or it'd take even LONGER to get to the finals.

Alignn said:
Maybe Suika will go "f that, I'm too busy having fun" and leave Sakuya frustrated and alone?

Not likely, given what we've seen of her so far.

The only thing I see working in O/T's favor is that they're the last true face team remaining. The way I see it two matchups make sense from a drama standpoint: Red 75 vs Moriya and O/T vs Hourai. Red 75 and Moriya have really stood out in ability, but both teams are heal/face, so choosing a side would just be a matter of taste. The most dramatic match up is the underdog face (O/T) vs the heavily favored heal (Hourai). I really don't see any other match up happening. As much as I like Sakuya and Suika in general, I just don't see them as championship material; Lost Servants vs Red 75 would make a somewhat interesting semi-final though.

I, for one, am hoping for team face vs team heel.

Underestimating Tenshi and Okuu is a terrible mistake as while Tenshi may seem weak offensively, that was against a magi-buffed Byakuren (who was likely tougher than most others at the time) The biggest hurtle would be Sakuya's time barrier ability. Okuu's might means nothing if Sakuya can negate most of the force.

I would be extremely shocked if Utsuho and Tenshi actually pulled something out here.

The thing about being the only face team left is true...but while that would apply logically in actual wrestling, it doesn't work in a Touhou rasslin' tourney. A good number of readers are going to root for their favorite Touhou regardless of whether they're a face or a heel. We could have an all-heel final and whoever wins would still make a lot of people happy, because their Touhou is the best.

I know there are plenty of people who do indeed follow the face/heel lines rather than the party lines, but Danbooru is hardly representative of the intended audience. And this is ignoring the fact that there were a decent number of vocal Reimu fans happy with her victory after she almost killed Nitori and then revealed that she never actually gave a shit the entire time (which overshadows anything and everything heelish that the harem team did).

After throwing face/heel out the window, we're really stuck with who's had the most exposure. The people we know are the people that are winning. How many other people noticed that none of the girls that got a bye really got any inter-team exposure at all outside of Sakuya, who's had finals-versus-Remi flags flying since the very beginning of this series, and surprise surprise, her team was the only one that didn't lose? The teams in this tournament have been wildly imbalanced in their exposure, and the teams with more development are advancing while the teams with no development have been getting dropped like bad habits. And outside of maybe Moriya 200% or whatever their name is, Heavenly Sky has the least exposure of the remaining teams. I just can't see what little development they've had taking down all of the buildup for Scarlet 75% vs. Lost Servants.

The ONE thing I see going for them is Tenshi commenting on the distaste she had for Kaguya's tactics and her declaring that she'll take them out, and telling Suika she'll take Suika down too when Suika voices support for their approach. But that's the only flag Heavenly Sky has planted, and I don't think it's nearly enough.

Kilgamayan said:
How many other people noticed that none of the girls that got a bye really got any inter-team exposure at all outside of Sakuya, who's had finals-versus-Remi flags flying since the very beginning of this series, and surprise surprise, her team was the only one that didn't lose?

You aren't actually applying your logic though and it doesn't even work most of the time either. Meiling was looking forward to fighting Sakuya as well, and Flandre wanted to face her sister but they got taken out in their first match. Shouldn't they have continued on then?

I don't see any pattern that verifies your logic. A lot of teams have had some aspect that's made them interesting but still didn't progress in spite of it.

Kilgamayan said:The teams in this tournament have been wildly imbalanced in their exposure, and the teams with more development are advancing while the teams with no development have been getting dropped like bad habits.

By this logic, Lost Servants should lose their next match since they've had very VERY little exposure in this comic. Take in comparison how long the Tenshi and Okuu team has been in development since back when both of them said they wanted to get into the tournament, then a whole other team dropped out so they could just get the chance to participate. The way I see it, regardless of whether they win any of their other matches, Heaven and Sky is all but guaranteed to win against Lost Servants simply due to how much it took to get them to this point. Add to that their overall likability and their pure desires and they have a way better chance than Lost Servants, who despite having Sakuya wanting to fight Remilia, haven't had much in the way of development of this drive (In fact, Sakuya losing could just give more development for Remilia wanting to take down Heaven and Sky) or Team Moriya (Who I also have little doubt will lose their next match since they've pretty much run out of new things to add).

But I again point out that Heaven & Sky has had a lot of build up over the course of the comic just by getting them together as a team. Them, Eternal Rivals and Red 75% are the only remaining teams with good story potential. Heaven & Sky being the "face" team that barely got into the games, Eternal Rivals being the "heel" team that the readers seem to really dislike, and Red 75%, the juggernauts that seem invincible. Lost Servants and Team Moriya don't have anything to bring to this story character wise anymore, one only has one character that has any drive and its been rather subdued in its presentation and the other has already kind of shown us everything to its drive already.

This round will have Reimu/Remilia vs Sanae/Suwako. Since the last round had Reimu vs Marisa, this round will have a Miko battle.

The other match will be Mokou/Kaguya vs Suika/Sakuya. Tenshi/Utsuho will be conveniently removed like Orin/Yuugi were on day two.

The finals will be Reimu/Remilia vs Suika/Sakuya, simply because they still have unresolved issues that were foreshadowed in the early days of the comic itself. Sakuya needing to prove herself worthy to Remilia as a combatant, and Suika's jealousy(more or less) over Reimu's partnership with Remi.

In my opinion, the finals were determined in the very beginning. Day 1 had the best battles and storylines so far, while Day 2 was mostly throw-away plots. Day 2 would have been much more enjoyable if any of the Day 1 victors lost their battles. Only then would it not seem so obvious (plot-wise) on who will go on to the finals.

My prediction for the overall winner? Still haven't decided. It could go either way if Sakuya can prove that she's got her shit together.

But with Reimu wanting the prize money that badly, I just don't see her getting it even if she wins the tournament. Hell, Reimu/Remilia could dominate the entire tournament, and Yukari would probably not afford to pay the prize money due to all of the repair bills she's had to foot. :V

I've felt that this was the case for quite a long time, but now seemed like as good a time as ever to post it.

Dr_Strafe said:
The finals will be Reimu/Remilia vs Suika/Sakuya, simply because they still have unresolved issues that were foreshadowed in the early days of the comic itself.

Oh, I hope not. That would be so anticlimactic. Suika/Sakuya have done just about jack shit throughout the whole series, and Reimu/Remilia's last fight canceled out everything good about their first.

Yeah, that final matchup would be the worst thing that could possibly happen to this comic. Utterly boring, enough said.

SpecterVonBaren said:
You aren't actually applying your logic though and it doesn't even work most of the time either. Meiling was looking forward to fighting Sakuya as well, and Flandre wanted to face her sister but they got taken out in their first match. Shouldn't they have continued on then?

I don't see any pattern that verifies your logic. A lot of teams have had some aspect that's made them interesting but still didn't progress in spite of it.

It's not an issue of having no content, it's an issue of having less content than the opponent. Besides, Sanae/Suwako and Meiling/Flounder had roughly equal development (which is to say, not a whole lot), and as I recall, the winner of their match was decided by a Pixiv poll, rather than anything Shirou had planned in advance. So we have:

- Yuugi/Rin have more development than Ran/Chen, Yuugi/Rin win.
- Reimu/Remilia have more development than Reisen/Youmu (though this one is fairly close, I'll admit), Reimu/Remilia win.
- Eirin/Kaguya have more development than Keine/Mokou, Eirin/Kaguya win.
- The one actual likely exception to this pattern is Sanae/Suwako taking out Yuuka/Cirno, since I recall a lot more Yuuka/Cirno development.
- Sanae/Suwako and Meiling/Flounder have about equal parts development and the result is determined by the fanbase. (Why people voted for Sanae after the stupid horseshit writing ending to her first match is beyond me but that's another discussion for another time.)
- Sakuya/Suika have more development than Yuugi/Rin, match ends in a tie where Yuugi/Rin drop out anyway.
-Kaguya/Mokou have more development than Eiki/Machi, Kaguya/Mokou win.
- Reimu/Remilia have more development than the harem, Reimu/Remilia win.

I'm not really seeing where this pattern doesn't apply, outside of arguably Yuuka's match.

By this logic, Lost Servants should lose their next match since they've had very VERY little exposure in this comic. Take in comparison how long the Tenshi and Okuu team has been in development since back when both of them said they wanted to get into the tournament, then a whole other team dropped out so they could just get the chance to participate. The way I see it, regardless of whether they win any of their other matches, Heaven and Sky is all but guaranteed to win against Lost Servants simply due to how much it took to get them to this point. Add to that their overall likability and their pure desires and they have a way better chance than Lost Servants, who despite having Sakuya wanting to fight Remilia, haven't had much in the way of development of this drive (In fact, Sakuya losing could just give more development for Remilia wanting to take down Heaven and Sky) or Team Moriya (Who I also have little doubt will lose their next match since they've pretty much run out of new things to add).

But I again point out that Heaven & Sky has had a lot of build up over the course of the comic just by getting them together as a team. Them, Eternal Rivals and Red 75% are the only remaining teams with good story potential. Heaven & Sky being the "face" team that barely got into the games, Eternal Rivals being the "heel" team that the readers seem to really dislike, and Red 75%, the juggernauts that seem invincible. Lost Servants and Team Moriya don't have anything to bring to this story character wise anymore, one only has one character that has any drive and its been rather subdued in its presentation and the other has already kind of shown us everything to its drive already

Sakuya has had finals-with-Remilia flags planted from the very beginning (I notice you didn't address this at all when I mentioned it the first time) and has also received two separate special training sessions, one with Yuuka/Yukari and one with Suika. On the flip side, Utsuho was the least involved of the Underground movement (since she kept screwing up) and Tenshi was just kind of there, and the two of them together got nothing particularly special in the way of a training montage. Drunken Sakuya alone received more strips than then...one? Maybe two? training strips that Heavenly Sky got.

That's major plot flags and multiple special training sessions against some exposure and about half a training session. What else have Utsuho and Tenshi done to overcome Remilia's expectations and the time spend on special Sakuya training?

I'm afraid that the Heavenly Combo is gonna lose as well. It seems all but certain, given that the Sakuya/Suika pair is a "main" team rather than a "side" team, which is a darn shame given that the Heavenly Combo actually cares about one another beyond using one another, work together as a team, and are generally entertaining to watch. You heard Satori, even. Tenshi, surprisingly enough, actually wanted to help Utsuho even though she acted all tsundere about it. This isn't even a matter of favorite Touhou winning, given that I don't particularly like Tenshi. It's just that all the other teams are so heelish or generally unpleasant that I can't really support their victory. The Heaven vs. Myouren bout was fun, clean, had a good balance of humor and fightan', and was generally the best fight of the entire series.

It's all but certain that Reimu is going to win, given that she has both plot-armor and popularity on her side, and it disappoints me that she's going to win because of those meta-reasons rather than anything in the strip itself.

Sooooo much TL;DR here. And... "Plot Armor" Now, am I looks smarter now? .^.

• (I heard that by saying this, you'll looks smarter)

Nadux said:
Where's Okuu?

Hiding in bird form, probably.

I think it'll be Suika/Sakuya vs Tenshi/Okuu first, to give the winners time to rest and get medical'd back to normal before taking on their second match of the night.

I don't want Okuu and Tenshi to lose, but I don't think there's any fair way for Suika to be defeated. She's at least equal to Yuugi and Yuugi was said at the start to be able to steam roll her way through the tournament.

Kilgamayan said:
-Kaguya/Mokou have more development than Eiki/Machi, Kaguya/Mokou win.

That's major plot flags and multiple special training sessions against some exposure and about half a training session. What else have Utsuho and Tenshi done to overcome Remilia's expectations and the time spend on special Sakuya training?

Youmu and Reisen did a bunch of special training and they were still fodder in the end.

And development doesn't excuse Kaguya and Mokou magically tripling their strength/toughness/regeneration during their match with Eiki. The absurd boost was clear compared to their first match against each other where they couldn't just shrug off the other team's attacks and having a mundane level of strength (Keine was stronger and Eirin was extremely skilled/techinical)

Steak said:
I don't want Okuu and Tenshi to lose, but I don't think there's any fair way for Suika to be defeated. She's at least equal to Yuugi and Yuugi was said at the start to be able to steam roll her way through the tournament.

At the start, Okuu and Tenshi weren't a team yet and none of the SEED-grade plot armor was revealed yet. Okuu has strong blows and Tenshi has nigh-unrivaled toughness and they need to use their strengths skillfully to get a leg up. I get the feeling that if Okuu and Tenshi were to lose, it'd involve Sakuya revealing she has plot armor too.

Actually, I think Scarlet 75% will face the Hourai team.

Re-reading the series, it seems we forgot they had a rivalry flag planted way earlier:

post #626936

StriderTuna said:
Youmu and Reisen did a bunch of special training and they were still fodder in the end.

They were fodder for the primary focus of this entire series.

Unless you want to sit there and tell me that Tenshi and Utsuho are more relevant to this series than Reimu and Remilia, in which case I'll know I can simply stop posting here and wasting everyone's time.

StriderTuna said:
And development doesn't excuse Kaguya and Mokou magically tripling their strength/toughness/regeneration during their match with Eiki. The absurd boost was clear compared to their first match against each other where they couldn't just shrug off the other team's attacks and having a mundane level of strength (Keine was stronger and Eirin was extremely skilled/techinical)

I wouldn't say development "excuses" that match's results. I would full-heartedly say development was directly responsible for that match's results, but that's a far cry from "excusing" them. In fact, that was the match where I well and truly gave up on this series having any chance of being a wrestling story instead of a favorite-2hu-wankfest. It was an utterly disgusting result, more so than all three of Sanae's two victories and Reimu beating Marisa combined.

But honestly? Realistically, this is probably all Shirou can do. In retrospect, there was never a chance this could be a wrestling story. As long as Touhous are involved, no story that contains wrestling will ever be a legitimate wrestling story, because Touhous defy general wrestling convention. You can't do faces and heels with these girls, because people are far too entrenched in who they like and who they don't like to give an iota of a fuck about who they're being told to like and who they're being told to not like.

This can be seen in real life, too. Who here watched the WWE in the late 2000s, where the writers were trying everything they could conceive to get people to stop booing John Cena? They even had Kurt Angle, the consummate patriot in pro wrestling, cut a promo about how he hated the troops because they got more attention than he did for services rendered to this country. And at the very next PPV a couple of weeks later the crowd was still cheering Angle and booing Cena. It's happening today, too, with Bryan Danielson. The 'E can't get him booed no matter how evil a guy they try to make him, because YES YES YES is way more over with crowds than management ever imagined possible.

But all that's besides the point. Yes, development is what made SuperHourai. No, it isn't right, fair, or even sensical. And no, none of those things matter, because we're talking Touhou wrestling, a concept that will simply never work in execution.

But at least we got a plethora of awesome outfits out of it.

Steak said:
I don't want Okuu and Tenshi to lose, but I don't think there's any fair way for Suika to be defeated. She's at least equal to Yuugi and Yuugi was said at the start to be able to steam roll her way through the tournament.

People say a lot of things. Remember, Suika has to deal with Sakuya as a partner; mopey, day late dollar short Dei_Shirou Sakuya. She just isn't the kind of character you put in a championship. Either O/T or Red 75 will eliminate Lost Servants this round.

Suika's also the only character in canon to have beaten Reimu.

Steak said:
Suika's also the only character in canon to have beaten Reimu.

In fact several other girls have beaten Reimu in canon, including Tenshi.