Okay, who gave Suika too much drinking again?

No! Not the precious donation box!

Lord-Fennec said:
Okay, who gave Suika too much drinking again?

Who? what do you mean, she has a infinite bottle of sake so she can drink all she wants, and that's probably the whole shrine not the donation box.

Kihova said:
Who? what do you mean, she has a infinite bottle of sake so she can drink all she wants, and that's probably the whole shrine not the donation box.

More like who stole Suika's gourd.

Reimu: HOLY SHIT!!!!!!

Reimu: NO! NOT AGAAAAIN!!!!

Oh, okay. Suika's gonna get totally pwned 4 da shrine AND donation box she destroyed. Really soon

Canon knowledge failure... check!

Reimu lost miserably to Suika in IaMP and to Tenshi in SWR. Lrn2touhou.

27th place!!!

Nah, her gourd is in her shadow. This seems a lot like a general "Cock Goes Where" moment.

Unveil...the GIGALOLI

Azazyel said:
Canon knowledge failure... check!

Reimu lost miserably to Suika in IaMP and to Tenshi in SWR. Lrn2touhou.

And to Yamaxanadu in PoFV. Final boss of the final boss, and all that.

Suika used Body Slam!

Azazyel said:
Canon knowledge failure... check!

Reimu lost miserably to Suika in IaMP and to Tenshi in SWR. Lrn2touhou.

Actually, Zun never said which path is the right one.

Some things point towards different theories. Some people say that the first ending is the true ending, so that's why your comment. Suika is the first ending.

Also, many times references to others in the fighting games. So they all go on at the same time, maybe. This is why Tenshi "beats" Reimu.
http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Scarlet_Weather_Rhapsody/Timeline/Temp
One of the theories about timelines.

Some people try to say they all went at the same time, and that's why some meet certain characters(Marisa meeting patchy for example). Then again, that doesn't mean much, since it's easy to meet them after the incident.

The only official lose I know of, is from a comic, but you knew about all this, that's why you didn't list this one, and mention the 2 that are just theories.

JesusK said:
stuff

I think you are making this too complicated. Reimu and Tenshi fought 2 times. First time Reimu won, second time Tenshi won. That's it.

All the endings are true whenever they need to be true, and in several cases, the different paths are sequential.

The reason the whole "masochist" meme around Tenshi popped up was that she kept picking fights even after she lost several times in a row.

Imperishable Night goes into full-out Roshaman mode, because several paths have to be true. Remi's previous attempts at building a rocket to the moon are referenced in Silent Sinner in Blue.

Meanwhile, care is taken to never reference Reimu ever being the solver of any particular incident (no Ruukoto references for you).

After all, if Marisa canonically never solved any of the incidents (or helped), why is she put in the same class as Reimu (and the face on the game icon)?

Or in other words, canon's a muddled mess, and the Dragon Breaks every time there's a divergent path in a canon game where they're all true simultaneously, and nobody can keep their story straight. (Clearly, it's because Marisa's mantling something/someone if she can keep beating goddesses on a regular basis.)

festin said:
I think you are making this too complicated. Reimu and Tenshi fought 2 times. First time Reimu won, second time Tenshi won. That's it.

You should have read it properly, "they fought 2 times" it's not canon, the possibility of it being the order is there. It's a theory, but it's based on the game, story, and what happens. So it's the closest to being truth from any game.
The suika one on the other hand, it's because fans decided that first ending was the true ending, without any basis.

NWSiaCB said:
Or in other words, canon's a muddled mess.

Oh I do agree on this, the canon is pretty unclear, and I am aware of what could be theorized as canon about Tenshi, IN and others.

But, people ignore the little canon there is (sometimes personalities, designs, ideas or races), and make up things when there is nothing to support.

I am aware that's how fans work, but at least I would like the decency to not go around stating the theories and made up rules as if they were facts.

JesusK said:
You should have read it properly, "they fought 2 times" it's not canon, the possibility of it being the order is there. It's a theory, but it's based on the game, story, and what happens. So it's the closest to being truth from any game.

I still do not understand how is it not canon. These scenarios are clearly sequential. First fight happens after the shrine was destroyed for the first time. Second fight happens right before the groundbreaking ceremony after the shrine was rebuilt for a second time. All these events are obviously canon. If there is any single reason to doubt that both fights happened in this sequence, I am not aware of it.

festin said:
stuff

Pretty simple:
Canon is what has officially happened.
In different games we have crossing paths, events and situations that can't be all at the same time, but also can't be only one.
So as long as the creator doesn't state that everything in the game ocurred and what order, what happened remains a theory.
A theory by the fans, doesn't exactly matter how sound a theory is, it can never be a fact, if it's a fact, is not a theory.

This is not only in touhou, but you can find it in visual novels, and just ordinary games, where you can control 1 of 2 factions, and unless the creator says what is canon, it's just uncertain then.

In this game in particular, there seems to be somewhat of an order. The order was made up by fans using what they recollect from what the characters say, given that all the events in every single campaign happen.

So, while a technicality, it's important to learn to differentiate between facts and theories. The order of the events is pretty sound and doesn't contradict as far as i remember, so its a really good theory.

And even if we take it as canon, and we add the statement of Zun where he says that if the girls lose they get ready and go at it again... Then it would mean that Reimu has lost to against pretty much everyone.

JesusK said:
Pretty simple:

Well, I see - according to this definition, almost no dialogue, fight or ending in Touhou is canon, because we are not entirely sure which one of the parallel paths "actually happened".

But even if we accept this theory, it does not apply here, because Tenshi's scenario is chronologically the last one, and there are no other scenarios "parallel" to it. So you would need some other reason to doubt its canonical status.

festin said:
Well, I see - according to this definition, almost no dialogue, fight or ending in Touhou is canon, because we are not entirely sure which one of the parallel paths "actually happened".

But even if we accept this theory, it does not apply here, because Tenshi's scenario is chronologically the last one, and there are no other scenarios "parallel" to it. So you would need some other reason to doubt its canonical status.

It's the last one in the timelane made by fans, not zun, based on the events on the game, that we don't know if all happen, or is selective like it might be in other games.
Timelines made by fans are not always right (take a look at how Zelda timeline ended up, being it 3 split timelines each one different and irrelevant to the others)

I would rather just stop here. I could keep going but it's just a spam of comments going nowhere, and that sidetracked long ago. I let myself get carried into pointless arguments.

JesusK said:
It's the last one in the timelane made by fans, not zun

It is crystal-clear that it is the last one. There is absolutely no need for Zun to spell it out, just like there is no need for a writer to explain that the end of the book happens chronologically after the beginning and the middle part. You just arguing just for the sake of argument, honestly.