comment #28281 You didn't do what I said did you. Go to the *chan's with /l/ boards and tell them that loli's can't have boobs. When their done tearing you a new one, don't expect anyone to hold you while you cry. The best ass reamings come from not4chan, but the fans at kochan are fairly liberal with their opinions too. I'm not joking either, just go to not4chan, and post "Loli's can't have boobs".
Loli is: Acting the age (except for irony, or sucking pole) Having an appropriate uniform.
In pictures where they the artist is going for even a half-sexual look, they have very few loli qualities unless he's a true pedderass. Because... get this... normal people are actually attracted to women with hips and busts.
post #8849 backpack, check. recorder, check. 'developing breast' check. Size... Whoops, she's an adult and has nice hips.
comment #28290 Though I don't have much of an opinion on the matter, it should be noted that ad populem arguments are invalid as popular opinion does not equate to truth. So asking a large number of people what their opinion on what is and is not would gain you nothing more than just that, their opinion.
This is a community, truth follows the community. Just as `normal' is defined by the general population. So yes, asking the populus will find the truth, just because the majority opinion is different than yours doesn't mean its not the truth. I take it that none of you want to ask over in not4chan land because you already know the answer will be different than what you want. This is loli, get over it already.
OK, to spin this about a bit.. rather than arguing whether or not boobs are not not loli.. what about this particular picture makes it loli anyway? Presence or absence of pubic hair is no guide
comment #28432 Well crap man, the guy I was responding to said that truth and opinion were mutually exclusive, when they aren't. Even gravity is just a theory, that every one accepts as truth, if we were to all not accept it, it would be false. I've been in the loli community for almost 6 years now and this falls well within its boarders.
The answer to your question is yes, for thousands of years it was accepted as okay. Thats not to say society can't change as ours has, and now slavery is bad. In the loli commmutiy though, this picture is in its walls, just as long ago, slavery was well within the norms.
Now this is getting fun, and I'm not being a sarcastic ass. I know its an odd spot and an odd conversation, but is fun none-the-less. I'm also sure I'll come back tomorrow morning and ask myself what the hell I was thinking. hehe.
comment #28481 I never said they were mutually exclusive. I said that you cannot use opinion as truth. Even if everyone were to deny gravity that would not negate gravity. The earth is not flat. Popular opinion was wrong. Diseases are not caused by bad smells or an unbalance of humors in the body. Popular opinion was again wrong. You commit the relativist fallacy when you claim that opinion dictates truth.
comment #28693 The best way to argue with a relativist is to punch him in the mouth and ask if it hurts.
comment #28481 You are a fool that cannot differentiate between Truth and taste. There is taste in this world. You may not like honey on your bread. However, it remains a Truth that honey tastes sweet. It is a Truth the world is round. Scientific Theory is the greatest approximation of Truth humans have created. Geometry and Mathematics are perfect logical Truths.
Real objective Truth obviously exists. Science approximates it form. Math is a perfect world created from our minds and obeys perfect laws. If some objective Truth exists, the universe is simpler if it flows from these Truths.
Somehow your mind has been horribly corrupted, and you think that taste and Truth are the same. You think that anything can become Truth if the polis wishes it. If you really successfully promulgated that within your polis, you will be destroyed from within and without within two generations. It is an incredible mental weakness, and if you somehow survive it would be through sheer luck.
You can't bring math into art (except certain artforms that this isn't). Don't turn examples into falacy's, they are what they are, examples to coax understanding, not definatives that stand on their own. Truth and taste are the same. As I said, you can't take them out of context. In the context of 4000 years ago, slavery was cool, in the context of today, it isn't (negate random countries that do think its kind-of okay). Honey tastes bitter as shit to me, but sweet to you, the truth of its taste is in the context of me, or the context of you. The context here is lolicon, this is lolicon.
Sometimes I think you guys just read portions and not the whole thing.
Loli, as a purely drawn style have proportionally more of their body taken up by their head than adults do. (Anime, as a style is based on this, an anime 'adult' has the proportions of a real child). Additionally of course, they're not going to have hips or breasts. We can start quantifying apparent age based on these characteristics. I'd still give this picture points that would put it into non-loli. If they don't fulfill these qualities, then they're not loli.
Now, for a pair of pathetic peripatetics.
Church: like, if loli is the state of being, appearing, or acting child-like Church: sexual maturity is sort of really important to two of those three categories Church: and for the third Church: well Church: no matter how hard a diaper fetishist takes a shit in a pair of depends Church: it doesn't make him a baby Church: the real question is if it makes him child-like Church: so really for loli we have two categories Church: true loli, which is the absence of physical traits of maturity, such as widened hips, developed breasts, etc Church: and satellite loli, which is the use of outfits or physical actions to mimic loli characteristics Church: both are loli but only one would get you time for statutory in a federal lockup if you got it drunk at a party and did your dirty business Church: then again, i've played games where the characters are obviously supposed to be underage Church: but have well Church: remarkably well-developed chests Church: it is a female characteristic. i mean what separates the loli from the everyday trap then Church: if you don't have at least one thing to go 'hey look at that girl i drew' if she is not like spreading it Church: all of the other artists would laugh at you and be like 'yeah that is a really nice little boy without a dick you drew there, watanabe, now do us all a favor and just go hand out candy at elementary schools like you want to' Saito: heh Saito: I really like the 'you can't bring math into art' Church: i think maybe the proper thing to do Church: would be to divide the actual loli fanbase Church: but that would be sort of hard Saito: yes Church: because then in that there would be hardcore, where it is like, hey look i am achieving orgasm while looking at a picture of an obviously underage girl Church: and then after that progressing levels Church: until you get people who are just drawn to like, some sort of puerile idea of innocence and extreme submissiveness Church: but would really rather not look at something that does not have some knockers and a little bit of curve Church: eh wot guvner Church: in that case then yeah anything could be considered loli so long as the eyes were large enough and the figure depicted not in any position of power Church: since i think like, the only defining characteristic might just be Church: are the figure's eyes as big as their fist or more like the size of a well-ripened cantaloupe Saito: heh Church: you could probably make that some sort of mathematical equation Church: like Saito: There's this picture of ren Church: eye size in relation to face Saito: where she has eyes like.. Saito: 99% of her face Saito: OOOOOOOOO I CAN SEE INFINITY Saito: heh Saito: 242 268 150 190 712 Saito: heh Church: what are those numbers about Saito: Rie's body length in pixels. She's a perfect 1/6 ratio, and she's the most adult anime chick I can think of.
Hell, and I misspoke. I wouldn't 'give it points' to make it loli. The point of the loli test would be an equation that could measure her three sizes, height, head size, whatever other quantifiers we have, and spit out one, or several loli-factor.
comment #28728 1) Gather your thoughts before posting 3 times in succession.
2) Read everything in my posts. I've said that several times now. Here's a quote: "You can't bring math into art (except certain artforms that this isn't)."
The golden mean is exaclty what I meant by whats in the parens, I knew you were going to do something stupid like that too, but I expected cubism or somthing. This isn't mathematical art. Its lolicon. As for proportions guidlines: post #8849
I posted this on not4chan, the toughest critics of loli I know of, and no one has said it isn't loli.
You guys are arguing "Do I think this is loli" and I'm arguing "Does the Lolicon community think this is loli". Its loli.
"You can't bring math into art, except for almost every type of art."
I'm not arguing "Do I think this is loli" I'm arguing "What IS the quality 'loli' and how can we go about creating a definition for it so we can more accurately tag pictures on this board, irrelevant of what anyone thinks." If they can make a good argument that something is loli, then the definition of loli can be modified.
For example, the litte play with me and Church revealed that there should be different categories of loli. This made me think that we ought to be able to assign some value to tags.
As an example of how the system could work, if you tag something 'loli' then you get to choose 'toddlerkon,' 'gradeschool,' 'puberty,' 'only illegal in crazy countries like the US and Canada.' And then you have to say 1-10 for 'cute' and 1-10 for 'sexual' and 1-10, and another array of choices for 'actual age'. Blah. Rather. 'technical age' and 'acting age' and 'apparent age'. Like, Etna is technically 600 or whatever, her apparent age is 13 or something arguable, and she acts like she's 20-something.
Re: Your links: I'm not sure how these prove your argument, but this is how I'd interpret them. I actually used 8849 as an example in comment #28292 She's only loli in her costume and acting. She has the body of a woman (at least, as womanly as women get in anime.) comment #48404 Hypercephalic woman. In anime she ends up looking pretty loli, but she has the butt, breasts, hips, and legs of a woman. Maybe we need a 'mutant' tag too. 40% headmass?! Her power level is !!! comment #80540 Would fit great in the puberty sub group, or whatever idea it's finalized as. I'd say pettanko and loli is a pretty bad tag for that actually. We should probably include 'shaved/bald genitals' as a criteria.
comment #62591 This series reflects what the thing I mentioned (Or I meant to, it's not in this thread) where the main theme of the 'loli' doesn't seem to be 'loli' (She's pubescent, not that's flat, developing, etc) so much as 'damn that girl is getting fucked by a HUGE dong.
More insight from my esteemed colleague Church: and his response was basically like Saito: There was like nothing to it Church: "boy you sure respond a lot" followed by "see your problem is trying to define loli yourself instead of accepting my definition." Church: look at it Church: that is pretty much Church: exactly what he said Saito: <3
----- I have a bachelor of the arts with a major in lolicon and a minor in neo-renaissance art movements.
So maybe we should just define loli as what not4chan accepts as loli. This sounds like a very painstaking method, and seems no different than an argument from authority, though replacing the authority of one man with an institution (though it may behave more like a mob). ----- Church: i guess it works perfectly though Church: if you have some sort of like 'oh my god everything is relative' thoughtline going on Church: because like Church: there are more of these guys on this messageboard, and they think that boobs and child-bearing hips are totally loli, short for lolita, reference to the book of the same name by nabokov in which the object of desire is of 12 years of age Church: boobs and hips are irrelevant Church: what you really need to do Church: is strip away what your eyes see Church: and look into the heart of what loli truly is Church: it is like some sort of platonic ideal Saito: Well, I'd take that sure enough, but he won't let me set about defining the ideal Saito: That's what I'm saying, we need to start making some divisions and saying 'this falls close to the loli-quality' and 'this doesn't' Church: okay see Church: here is what there is Church: it is a platonic ideal: floating around The Source Church: is Loli Church: and a lot of things express Loli Church: to varing degrees Church: at what point does something that you sit on cease to be a chair Church: and become a couch Saito: As long as there's a lot of lolis chained to the wall and I get to walk by and inspect them, I'm all for it Church: the boundaries are just naturally blurred Saito: *to the wall of the cave Church: well Church: we need to understand this Platonic ideal, this Loli Saito: We do!
Ah I've got another thought: You guys are arguing "Do I think this is loli" and I'm arguing "Does the Lolicon community think this is loli". Its loli.
To address that, I'd say, your authority accepts more things as 'loli' than others. They say 'yeah, it is loli' even though it's got hips and breasts. I don't really care if it's loli or not. I just want to define loli, and I don't want to go to your authority (whatever it may be) everytime I want to find out what's loli. Or at least, what standards we need to measure to define loli characteristics.
This has 20 marks in the a category, and 15 in the c and d, and 0 in the b category, so it's only 45% loli, but the uncertainty of using this as a measurment is +/- 10%, it could or could not be critically 'loli.'
Saito: I need to make a 'dr. fine rolo essay' tag Saito: I have a dozen of these posts. Church: heh. Church: dorii and guraa are not shota they are loli Church: "uh that is a misrepresentation of fact" Church: well if that is true then what have i been spilling my seed to Church: ergo, dorii and guraa are loli Church: "logical fallacy" Saito: I'd post that for laughs, but it'd start another dorii and guraa flame war Church: :3 Church: so what Saito: heh Church: what the internet needs more than anything is to die in a fire Church: filthy onanists
Once again someone is justifying their claim by appealing to a general populus. Regardless of what the lolicon comunity thinks general consensus does not dictate truth. So regardless of what they think that would have no bearing on weather or not it is or is not.
And "you can bring math into art." What the hell? You sound like you've studied art, but obviously know nothing about math and how math is in everything. ESPECIALLY when you involve freaking computers. Other forms of art that have a high content of math that you did not list is music.
I think the only art that does not involve math would be scribbles in the sand or something else that cannot be digitized. Though I suppose with a digital camera you could. Maybe certain forms or poetry... No, math is in everything.
and by the way, Give kudos to Church. He seems quite intelligent from what little I've read of him. As do you Dr. Fine Rolo.
I'm in awe man, you didn't throw out random insults, you stuck to the topic, you read my whole post. Are you feeling okay? You're scaring me here. I do have to say though, that you're the first person to say that girl only looks loli in her clothes, are you sure you've seen the set? I always find pics of her in threads titled "what got me into loli". She's the queen of loli with boobs and hips, the shining example of how boobs and hips have nothing todo with age in a fantasy world.
I've always argued that its visible age, because how do I know etna is 600? I know nothing about the character beyond the picture.
"In the anime she ends up looke preatty loli" if you say something like that about a pic, then tag it loli, its really that simple, why make it so damn complex?
"Would fit great in the puberty sub group, or whatever idea it's finalized as" you get your choice, loli or no. sub-peuberty is far and away in loli.
And whats this crap about puberty = not loli? Lolita was 16! I typically see it bumped down to 14 for most arguments, but even 12 year olds have breasts this big, all I have to do is look at my kid sister an all her friends for proof. Or when I went to jury duty last year because some 14 year old had passed herself off as 18 and charged a guy with statutory.
"So maybe we should just define loli as what not4chan accepts as loli" Nevermind, I guess you don't read what I type. I've said twice ALL the /l/ boards, not just not4chan. I mention them because they are outspoken, not because they are my only citation.
On a side note, I'm suprised that no one is complaining about how much we're chatting. We make up the bulk of the comments on this picture.
comment #28889 You've got it backwards, I'm a CS major. And we're not talking about music, never were, we're talking about the picture above. We already discused proportions of the character, if there is more math involved in this picture then please tell me what it is, I'm very curious if you had an example or just wanted to make a random point. Please read the whole discussion before responding, we've touched on all of your points already.
To sum up. Hip and breasts have nothing to do with loli. Its the complete package, the way it is presented. If we follow your definition, then we have no loli, we go strait from toddlercon to adult at the first hint of breats or hips. Loli is the grey area, where they aren't adults, but aren't toddelers, it is a simplification of hairless, prepubecent, post-peubecent but pre-adult, we just say "loli". It makes the internet simpler, and gives a common ground to start from.
comment #I posted this on not4chan, the toughest critics of loli I know of, and no one has said it isn't loli. Haha is this sarcasm? Wanna try thoughest critics on loli? try http://rori.crimsondays.com for example, not not4chan.us which is filled with trolls that are there just to post non loli pics
This isn't loli at all I agree with Anonymous. Wait then again I have to agree with Anonymous again since he/she/it says it's loli. Oh the confusion. But from my eyes big tits doesn't mean loli :/ If the bewbs were smaller like literally flat then it would be considered loli ^^
Anonymous said: On a side note, I'm suprised that no one is complaining about how much we're chatting. We make up the bulk of the comments on this picture.
I'm complaining now, over three years later WTF! its a good picture that no one needed to argue about in the first place jeez!!
