shadowbringer said: Tenshi with her back supposedly unusable, wins. What a surprise.
You're expecting any sort of sense in a match where the combatants are an oni who can change size, a drunken-time-hax maid, versus a hell-raven who can use Smash attacks and transform, and a Celestial whose only practical ability in the ring is super endurance?
JakeBob said: You're expecting any sort of sense in a match where the combatants are an oni who can change size, a drunken-time-hax maid, versus a hell-raven who can use Smash attacks and transform, and a Celestial whose only practical ability in the ring is super endurance?
while I agree that the match doesn't make much sense *if* we're going for strict no-powers (even as imbalanced as that is), instead of just using the barrier to even the field between the players and sticking to not using "wrestling-illegal moves", I'm amazed how people keep treating HS as underdogs. Anyways, the moment it became clear that HS's opponents can just be written to behave in a way in which they'll lose, how well they play stopped being relevant, and the matches stopped being interesting to follow, other than for confirming HS's plot armor. It stopped being a question of if HS will win, but how.
Chibi_Musashi said: Or maybe... Tenshi flipped Sakuya while grabbing one hand and grabbed the other when she was facing the other side.
Its the Crossrider Suplex in which you grab your opponents hands, cross them, and as you lift her up you pull your hands to the sides and your opponent somehow flips around facing the other direction, its weird.
Seriously if HS wins this it will be another bullshit match, I am fed up with enough of those as is considering the damage Tenshi has taken throughout the match especially to her back so there is NO way she should have been able to use a Crossrider Suplex. The way this match has been going it needs to end in either as a draw or as Lost Servant's win.
shadowbringer said: while I agree that the match doesn't make much sense *if* we're going for strict no-powers (even as imbalanced as that is), instead of just using the barrier to even the field between the players and sticking to not using "wrestling-illegal moves", I'm amazed how people keep treating HS as underdogs. Anyways, the moment it became clear that HS's opponents can just be written to behave in a way in which they'll lose, how well they play stopped being relevant, and the matches stopped being interesting to follow, other than for confirming HS's plot armor. It stopped being a question of if HS will win, but how.
They're underdogs storyline wise. In terms of them even getting into this tournament they had to jump through a lot of hoops and the tournament heads (Or at least Yukari) were against them. They're also underdogs in terms of intelligence or at least how people perceive their intelligence.
In terms of their actual abilities, both of them are end game bosses and one of them is even the boss of a fighting game. Tenshi has also canonically beaten Reimu and Utsuho has the power of a nuclear fusion.
shadowbringer said: Anyways, the moment it became clear that HS's opponents can just be written to behave in a way in which they'll lose, how well they play stopped being relevant
When did that set in? if you constantly whittle away at a team by saying "their opponent should have been able to do this and get away scott-free so they're obviously being written to lose," then what kind of legitimate victory for that team can there be?
Edit: I give up asking people to just enjoy the strip for what it is rather than trying to pose arguments of "my fanon logic/common sense is stronger than yours/dei shirou's." Enjoy what miseries you invent for yourselves.
CybeastGregarX said: Come on Sakuya! You can break free!! D:
Seriously if HS wins this it will be another bullshit match, I am fed up with enough of those as is considering the damage Tenshi has taken throughout the match especially to her back so there is NO way she should have been able to use a Crossrider Suplex. The way this match has been going it needs to end in either as a draw or as Lost Servant's win.
You mean Tenshi whose entire gimmick is being the most durable competitor? Sure, total BS that she would actually be the most durable.
considering the damage Tenshi has taken throughout the match especially to her back so there is NO way she should have been able to use a Crossrider Suplex. The way this match has been going it needs to end in either as a draw or as Lost Servant's win.
Hey, remember that time Suika got hit so hard she needed assistance to walk back to the ring, and then was strong enough to hold Utsuho fast in the corner (despite Utsuho not being gassed), strong enough to break Utsuho's corner hold and charge headlong into the pin right after that (despite Utsuho not being gassed), and then still strong enough to hold her giant form for quite a while during the double team pinning combination?
There's been the author equivalent of refball on both sides of this match. I will put this, from three days ago, forth again:
Kilgamayan said: At this point, I don't think either side has a leg to stand on in trying to claim a victory by the other side would be a bullshit win.
Magus said: You mean Tenshi whose entire gimmick is being the most durable competitor? Sure, total BS that she would actually be the most durable.
Most durable competitor or not she was repeatedly attacked in the back with the Bow and Arrow and Sharpshooter submission moves, and even had a high speed collision with Sakuya's head and many more attacks which would have made her back a weak spot during this match for massive damage and the Crossrider Suplex involves stretching your BACK backwards that would have made it too painful even for her to even use that.
Kilgamayan said: Hey, remember that time Suika got hit so hard she needed assistance to walk back to the ring, and then was strong enough to hold Utsuho fast in the corner (despite Utsuho not being gassed), strong enough to break Utsuho's corner hold and charge headlong into the pin right after that (despite Utsuho not being gassed), and then still strong enough to hold her giant form for quite a while during the double team pinning combination?
Which is the equivalent of poor script writing, everyone receiving massive loads of damage and yet they hold up as if they only took less then half the damage and keep walking. Even Utsuho's transformation to her Hell Raven form was poor writing because if Suika really had a strong grip on her (which she did) she would have crush Utsuho before she could have even got out whether she was a bird or in her human form, its as if her bird form appeared where her head was, and lastly even if any of these teams were to win how are they going to heal up in time for their match against Team Moriya who is already healing up during this match? They would be slaughtered unless Eirin is willing to help them
Still, taking massive amounts of punishment is common in wrestling, especially in some indy promotions. I remember on ROH/Dragon Gate match when it was one hell of a spotfest, but still pretty awesome.
FJH said: When did that set in? if you constantly whittle away at a team by saying "their opponent should have been able to do this and get away scott-free so they're obviously being written to lose," then what kind of legitimate victory for that team can there be?
personally, I don't like nonstrategical players/teams winning, and strategical players/teams choking and losing to said nonstrategical ones. Shou failing to neutralize Okuu on two occasions (at least) and Suika idiotballing and allowing the Okuudive to hit Sakuya, ruined all their teams' efforts and strategy work. It's like watching the magician team put all that effort and planning against Red 75% only to discover that it was good for only half of the match.
FJH said: Edit: I give up asking people to just enjoy the strip for what it is rather than trying to pose arguments of "my fanon logic/common sense is stronger than yours/dei shirou's." Enjoy what miseries you invent for yourselves.
tell me, how would I "enjoy the strip for what it is" if the parts I find interesting (fighting) turned out to be aggravating? I guess you can't answer, because you don't feel the problem yourself, or just watch fights passively, without thinking about what the players are doing right, could've done and aren't doing right. "Enjoy the strip for what it is", at this point, is like saying "chew this lemon and enjoy it for what it is", really.
FJH said: Enjoy what miseries you invent for yourselves.
except I didn't invent something that was already there. It's not my problem if you can't see it.
Kilgamayan said: Hey, remember that time Suika got hit so hard she needed assistance to walk back to the ring, and then was strong enough to hold Utsuho fast in the corner (despite Utsuho not being gassed), strong enough to break Utsuho's corner hold and charge headlong into the pin right after that (despite Utsuho not being gassed), and then still strong enough to hold her giant form for quite a while during the double team pinning combination?
Byakuren needed the 4 limbs + the two versions of peach bomber to get K.O.d, and she was doing relatively well after taking 2 chops. Suika failed at completely disabling Okuu, like she believed she had done (first when tagging out with Sakuya, then at her last giant transformation). Like I said to FJH, the strategy part of LS went poof halfway through the match, or else the match would've been even more aggravating (scrubs winning over optimal play).
SpecterVonBaren said: They're underdogs storyline wise. In terms of them even getting into this tournament they had to jump through a lot of hoops and the tournament heads (Or at least Yukari) were against them. They're also underdogs in terms of intelligence or at least how people perceive their intelligence.
In terms of their actual abilities, both of them are end game bosses and one of them is even the boss of a fighting game. Tenshi has also canonically beaten Reimu and Utsuho has the power of a nuclear fusion.
Underdogs in plot, okay. But underdogs in skill? People are supposed to root for the more skilled players, not the less skilled ones.
it sounded strange for me that Okuu was portrayed as having less power than Suika (since mythologically speaking, yatagarasu rank higher than dragons and phoenixes). Suika also has (arguably) defeated Reimu (ending 01, etc), and I think that it shouldn't be much relevant (it only tells that Reimu has managed to win the first time against the final bosses of the previous games, it's not like they can't ever win if they rematched or engaged in a series of matches).
Whatever else I would have to say, was already said before (regarding Tenshi's overreliance on her defense -- GTT's Tenshi bothered to check her opponent's weaknesses, for example).
shadowbringer said: personally, I don't like nonstrategical players/teams winning, and strategical players/teams choking and losing to said nonstrategical ones. Shou failing to neutralize Okuu on two occasions (at least) and Suika idiotballing and allowing the Okuudive to hit Sakuya, ruined all their teams' efforts and strategy work. It's like watching the magician team put all that effort and planning against Red 75% only to discover that it was good for only half of the match.
HS isn't nonstratgic... if anything, they've been the more strategic team here (not that there's been much strategy from either team). Okuu came in with plans specifically for Suika and for escaping inevitable grappling. LS didn't have a plan for Okuu's God Chop... Suika made a call on the fly that it would be bad for that to run into Sakuya's shield and decided to take the hit herself as the attack was happening. That's just tactics... a strategic team would have considered all that in advance and planned for it. Like Okuu did.
I think you're confusing the more polished tactics of LS with being strategic, when this has been a very tactical match. And although, like the opening pose, HS hasn't been quite as polished, trying things repeatedly that are having little to no effect, they've still been fighting with plans.
CybeastGregarX said: Even Utsuho's transformation to her Hell Raven form was poor writing because if Suika really had a strong grip on her (which she did) she would have crush Utsuho before she could have even got out whether she was a bird or in her human form, its as if her bird form appeared where her head was
Wait, so we got hammered with the concept of transforming into animals to escape the enemy having a hold on you, Okuu uses it to escape Suika grip and then is bad writing?
Alguien said: Wait, so we got hammered with the concept of transforming into animals to escape the enemy having a hold on you, Okuu uses it to escape Suika grip and then is bad writing?
Probably only because it was used against LS. I'm sorry but CybeastGregarX's whole argument feels way too biased for me to take seriously.
shadowbringer said: personally, I don't like nonstrategical players/teams winning, and strategical players/teams choking and losing to said nonstrategical ones.
I don't see HS as not having a strategy but as having a simple one. Tenshi can tank and Okuu can deal high damage. Simple and effective, unless there's something I'm missing which I'm sure you'll point out for me.
HS's only strength is everyone's refusal to put Okuu down like a dog. Her attacks should be easy to counter and evade, but her opponents practically, even literally, let her hit them.
Steak said: HS's only strength is everyone's refusal to put Okuu down like a dog. Her attacks should be easy to counter and evade, but her opponents practically, even literally, let her hit them.
I think this is a valid point. Up to this point, it seems as if Tenshi was being considered the more troublesome combatant. Even Suika thought "disable her arms and she's useless." After this match, especially after this match, if the teams in the wings are paying attention, Okuu's threat needs to be taken seriously.
Alguien said: Wait, so we got hammered with the concept of transforming into animals to escape the enemy having a hold on you, Okuu uses it to escape Suika grip and then is bad writing?
It's HOW she was able to escape and after it that was bad writing. The second Ustuho transformed she escaped with no problem even though Suika's grip should have closed her in and crushing her as a bird and yet she appeared where her head was when she SHOULD have appeared where her torso was and where was that? In Suika's hand. Another thing Ustuho should have been even a little bit exhausted from that since everyone who used a form altering move such as Flandre cloning herself, Remilia becoming bats, and Suika and Yugi enlarging themselves they all got tired from them yet Utsuho was alright.
TheHunter said: Probably only because it was used against LS. I'm sorry but CybeastGregarX's whole argument feels way too biased for me to take seriously.
You would think that way and I am not playing favorites, I just see a whole lot of inconsistencies with this fight on both teams that only few people see which is making this fight very not enjoyable compared to every other match minus 3 matches which were bullshit. As I said before to Kilgamayan this match suffers from poor writing since every bit of damage received from someone whether it was incredibly strong like Otsuho's God Chop or normally strong like the repeated assaults to Tenshi's back (which should have prevented her from using the Crossrider Suplex due to intense pain) they instantly shake it off almost 1 minute after getting hit and act like they only took half the damage, and unless this match ends in a draw this match will be officially labeled as the 4th bullshit match since the odds were completely in Lost Servants' favor and were close to winning and yet they instantly lose the odds and Heavenly Sky is somehow now invincible.
CybeastGregarX said: It's HOW she was able to escape and after it that was bad writing. The second Ustuho transformed she escaped with no problem even though Suika's grip should have closed her in and crushing her
It was never stated that Suika was "crushing her" (unless that's the untranslated sound effect in 966 panel 2). It wouldn't be impossible to just hold Okuu tightly without crushing, and the depiction does show her just darting out of there immediately.
yet she appeared where her head was when she SHOULD have appeared where her torso was and where was that? In Suika's hand.
The training from strip 823 is indeterminate about what becomes the "center" of her bird-form upon transformation. There, Rin had her limb locked, but the flutter suggested she formed between the leghold and the armhold areas.
Another thing Ustuho should have been even a little bit exhausted from that since everyone who used a form altering move ... got tired
No saying she wasn't affected; her counter measure was a haphazard headbutt, after-all. Her bird form is smaller, physically, but I won't press on that, as if it would matter to your argument. In that same right, though, there's no saying that Tenshi isn't in a lot of pain either. She doesn't seem to be able to properly gauge her fatigue or how much something should hurt after the point where she had been hurt. Look at how much punishment she put her fists through hitting Sakuya's "time stop wall" and yet kept pounding away.
CybeastGregarX said: Another thing Ustuho should have been even a little bit exhausted from that since everyone who used a form altering move such as Flandre cloning herself, Remilia becoming bats, and Suika and Yugi enlarging themselves they all got tired from them yet Utsuho was alright.
Are you really going to play the "transformation = tired" card because Okuu transformed into a bird for a total of ONE frame when Suika has been half the match in giant mode?
Alguien said: Are you really going to play the "transformation = tired" card because Okuu transformed into a bird for a total of ONE frame when Suika has been half the match in giant mode?
Yes, yes he is, because he *hates* Heaven Sky Combo.
shadowbringer said: Byakuren needed the 4 limbs + the two versions of peach bomber to get K.O.d, and she was doing relatively well after taking 2 chops. Suika failed at completely disabling Okuu, like she believed she had done (first when tagging out with Sakuya, then at her last giant transformation). Like I said to FJH, the strategy part of LS went poof halfway through the match, or else the match would've been even more aggravating (scrubs winning over optimal play).
Like I said, they underestimated Okuu too much and it's not like LS is being very tactical either in this match. And you're underestimating Byakuren now, I'd say she's better than Suika in her Superhuman state.
Underdogs in plot, okay. But underdogs in skill? People are supposed to root for the more skilled players, not the less skilled ones.
Who said they're not skilled? To pull off all the stunts they had done is pretty skillful for me. They got the wits and is also good in making quick decisions.
it sounded strange for me that Okuu was portrayed as having less power than Suika (since mythologically speaking, yatagarasu rank higher than dragons and phoenixes). Suika also has (arguably) defeated Reimu (ending 01, etc), and I think that it shouldn't be much relevant (it only tells that Reimu has managed to win the first time against the final bosses of the previous games, it's not like they can't ever win if they rematched or engaged in a series of matches).
She is stronger than Suika, like you said, when using the Yatagarasu's power through her various God move and it has risks. She can't be as strong as Suika without it, that would be unfair.
Whatever else I would have to say, was already said before (regarding Tenshi's overreliance on her defense -- GTT's Tenshi bothered to check her opponent's weaknesses, for example).
Good for you then, here Tenshi bothered to try finding the opponent's weaknesses by using her endurance and utilizing it.
shadowbringer said: Byakuren needed the 4 limbs + the two versions of peach bomber to get K.O.d, and she was doing relatively well after taking 2 chops. Suika failed at completely disabling Okuu, like she believed she had done (first when tagging out with Sakuya, then at her last giant transformation). Like I said to FJH, the strategy part of LS went poof halfway through the match, or else the match would've been even more aggravating (scrubs winning over optimal play).
Hiriji was only hit by one Godchop. That was Okuu's left hand. the two God kicks weren't aimed at her at all and were used to give Tenshi's Golden Peach Bomber a needed power boost.
Hiriji was only hit by one Godchop. That was Okuu's left hand. the two God kicks weren't aimed at her at all and were used to give Tenshi's Golden Peach Bomber a needed power boost.
thank you for the information and correction.
monhan said: Like I said, they underestimated Okuu too much and it's not like LS is being very tactical either in this match. And you're underestimating Byakuren now, I'd say she's better than Suika in her Superhuman state.
I can't confirm the latter but, the worst (ha ha) has happened, they didn't finish the DPS and they let her do her job (no pun.. intended?)
monhan said: Who said they're not skilled? To pull off all the stunts they had done is pretty skillful for me. They got the wits and is also good in making quick decisions.
quick decisions and adaptability, I agree (though Tenshi insists in trying to defeat other people in their field of advantage, which -- while showy -- is counterproductive); Sakuya said that she came with lots of strategies, but the outcome was rather disappointing, for the "preparation" she said they've done. Can agree that people underestimated Okuu by not properly stopping her assistances (but honestly don't see HS's gimmicks stopping to work on the latter matches)
While Okuu came up with some moves (two of them planned -- the fast followup after bird form, though the act of changing into bird itself was desperate, and the nuke on giant-sized Suika), most of what she did was reaction or improvisation (using her aerial mobility against Suika, her footstomp, okuudive save, carrying Suika out). It's okay for it to work, but LS could've avoided that (by not letting Okuu play) but didn't. Also, Okuu is canonically a birdbrain, it's either surprising or out-of-character for her to come up with a long-term plan.
Regarding Tenshi, she's shown to be adaptable but not very bright (Satori had to tell her how Sakuya's defense works), while she can find counters on reaction, she also tried to get off Sakuya's grapples through brute force, which worked against her (and almost cost her the match, wasn't for Okuustomp). Suika took notice of the damage done to Tenshi's body when she first entered the ring, but, ultimately, such "careful" examining was just for show. :(
Finally, some things (that I may not have said before): - Suika used her "counter" against peach bomber, thanks to Kanako, Sakuya had help from Yukari for her second-to-last pin (though Yukari hasn't expected her training to be used the way Sakuya did) - Yukari (canonically) doesn't get along with Tenshi (the latter has tried to take possession of the Hakurei Shrine in SWR, Yukari had to re-destroy and get the shrine re-rebuilt to remove the keystone that was placed on it); celestials' flesh are poisonous to youkai, and Tenshi tried to take territories outside her own land, even when she and/or the other celestials had more than enough land, as per Yukari's investigation. - HS's opponents should have characters rooting for them as well :(
Steak said: HS's only strength is everyone's refusal to put Okuu down like a dog. Her attacks should be easy to counter and evade, but her opponents practically, even literally, let her hit them.
some seemingly viable strategies (besides the one attempted here, to create a crack on Tenshi's armor) include: - K.O.ing Okuu so heavily that she's out of commission for the remainder of her fight, then tagging out constantly while tiring Tenshi out (has the benefit of no partner-assistance for Tenshi and/or team moves) and regenerating the "red HP" - use Tenshi to beat Okuu (more practical), who isn't nearly as durable as Tenshi is - use Okuu's nukes against Tenshi (more difficult) - damage Okuu's limbs so that if she tries to use the nukes, they'll come out with less power (in b4 she can use her head or body or ass or whatever else for nuking too..) - remove Tenshi from the field and pin a damaged Okuu (making sure to deal with her bird form), or vice-versa :D
StriderTuna said: People want HS to win because they're generally fun to watch, unlike just about everyone who is suppa cerial business about it.
And disliking non strategic characters winning? Sounds like shadowbringer would have hated team Moriya's matches.
One of HS's strengths is on the fly unconventional tactics compared to most other teams.
fun is relative, the fun in watching two highly-skilled players/teams fighting each other is (among other things) that both of them are expected to have access to a vast variety of options; this match, to use a comparison, seems like a DotA (or insert HoN or LoL, though I don't play these) match where the team with a long-term gameplan loses to a team which "just wants to have fun" ( http://www.learntocounter.com/i-play-for-fun-the-four-dumbest-words-in-video-games/ ). LS didn't do the execution well enough too (they did weaken Tenshi, but while she soaked up the damage, Okuu did what LS shouldn't allow her to do).
haven't watched the entirety of her fight against Scarlet 200%, but Suwako has enough combat experience (unlike Okuu and Tenshi, and more like Shou), has been able to exploit Flandre's vampire weakness (though Flandre also drained herself with her 4-of-a-kind), her melee skills are in par with Byakuren's (at least in this series) and equal or better than Meiling's (but not enough for Yuka). Sanae's wins, though.. (I wanted Yuka to win, and in the fight against 200%, neither side's last standing members were really trying to follow or form a gameplan. By the time I started trying to catch up with the series, Yuka's fight was already over. I think she fought well, though, before her moe side took the best of her in the end.)
One bad thing about such an early loss for Yuka, is that her umbrella counterpart, Yukari, will probably have much more to show if she ever gets to fight HS personally.
Episode 970: Howl of the heart.From the Artist's Pixiv page.There's nothing left for me if I lose...I can't lose!I don't want to lose!!And yet......why do you refuse to move......My body?!!This is......the technique that severs...The Holy Cross StyleAnd they make a half turn!!...both loyalty and tenacity!!Crossriiiider supleeeeex!!!!And it's settled!!
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