Anzio's P40 now makes me wonder if the Italians had a good tank line that reached the Cold War mediums. the C1 Ariete was impressive.

ezekill said:

Anzio's P40 now makes me wonder if the Italians had a good tank line that reached the Cold War mediums. the C1 Ariete was impressive.

Italy never got to use the P40. They surrendered as the first few were built, and Germany GTFO'd with everything, plans included. Much like how Saunders has the *British-Only* Sherman Firefly (The US flat-out refused to use it, despite the proven effectiveness of the 17-pdr against Tigers and Panthers at long-range, simply because it was a British Gun. They created the M4A1 76( w ) to do the same job, albeit not as well), the creators gave it to them, because of the model's main manufacture. In the case of the Firefly, it's a Sherman hull, so US. The P40 was built in Italy, so they got it, even though they never got to use it.

Ariete was not great even when it entered service in 1995 (and especially when it finished delivery in 2002) - it was very much a product of the '80s and had been left behind in terms of capability after finishing its lengthy development phase. In particular, the frontal armor was apparently only designed to defeat 115mm (T-62's U-5TS) to keep weight down. The Italian Army has conducted upgrades since then (including replacing the hydraulic turret drive with electric and updating the engine and armor), but so has everyone else, and from the information that's out there it's still really not up to the standards of its NATO cousins in their latest iterations. (In fairness, however, Ariete was also developed on a rather tight budget and retained domestic industry, which simply, say, buying Leopard 2A4s would not have done.)

wolffenrirhelix said:

Much like how Saunders has the *British-Only* Sherman Firefly (The US flat-out refused to use it, despite the proven effectiveness of the 17-pdr against Tigers and Panthers at long-range, simply because it was a British Gun. They created the M4A1 76( w ) to do the same job, albeit not as well), the creators gave it to them, because of the model's main manufacture. In the case of the Firefly, it's a Sherman hull, so US. The P40 was built in Italy, so they got it, even though they never got to use it.

Couple of things:
America had a Firefly. They mounted the turret on a M4A3 and used it for testing the gun at Aberdeen Proving Ground.
The 76mm wasn't envisioned as a counter to the big cats, but rather a continued development of the 75mm. The actual Tank Destroyers either had the 76mm M1 early on (M10 Wolverines, M18 Hellcats) or the 90mm gun M3 (M36 Jackson).
The 17pdr was not particularly better than the 76mm at killing big cats. You needed to fire the APDS ammo from the 17pdr to penetrate at long range, and that thing had horrendous accuracy compared to the 76mm HVAP.

Minimin said:

Couple of things:
America had a Firefly. They mounted the turret on a M4A3 and used it for testing the gun at Aberdeen Proving Ground.
The 76mm wasn't envisioned as a counter to the big cats, but rather a continued development of the 75mm. The actual Tank Destroyers either had the 76mm M1 early on (M10 Wolverines, M18 Hellcats) or the 90mm gun M3 (M36 Jackson).
The 17pdr was not particularly better than the 76mm at killing big cats. You needed to fire the APDS ammo from the 17pdr to penetrate at long range, and that thing had horrendous accuracy compared to the 76mm HVAP.

ONE Firefly. They didn't like it. Because, as I pointed out, it's a BRITISH gun on an AMERICAN hull. We mounted a few 17pdr's on the M10 Tank Destroyer (Only we Brits called it the Wolverine. The Americans kept calling it the "M10 Tank Destroyer"), called it the Achilles. Idea never really took off with the Americans, because again British Gun. The gun was more effective than the low-velocity 75mm, and most guns the US put on its Sherman. It was also more effective than most guns that the Allies used IN GENERAL, short of dedicated TD guns, and artillery weapons.

wolffenrirhelix said:

ONE Firefly. They didn't like it. Because, as I pointed out, it's a BRITISH gun on an AMERICAN hull. We mounted a few 17pdr's on the M10 Tank Destroyer (Only we Brits called it the Wolverine. The Americans kept calling it the "M10 Tank Destroyer"), called it the Achilles. Idea never really took off with the Americans, because again British Gun. The gun was more effective than the low-velocity 75mm, and most guns the US put on its Sherman. It was also more effective than most guns that the Allies used IN GENERAL, short of dedicated TD guns, and artillery weapons.

Still, APDS on it (I believe there were bitchfits about the 17 pdr APDS having bad quality metal for stabilization and I dunno what the difference in material was in the British APCR/APDS and on the American HVAP) wasn't really screaming OP but rather it was potent enough to warrant you guys liking it.... to the point I believe you based the 20 pounder from it and from that made that gun made of hax in its era, the L7 105.

ezekill said:

Still, APDS on it (I believe there were bitchfits about the 17 pdr APDS having bad quality metal for stabilization and I dunno what the difference in material was in the British APCR/APDS and on the American HVAP) wasn't really screaming OP but rather it was potent enough to warrant you guys liking it.... to the point I believe you based the 20 pounder from it and from that made that gun made of hax in its era, the L7 105.

The base gun, I admit wasn't a British design. I believe it was a French piece. However, British Engineering made the OQF-17pdr Anti-Tank Gun better. Muzzle Velocity and Penetration made it the best Anti-Tank gun we could field on anything not a Tank Destroyer, a Piece of Artillery, an Aircraft fitted with Rockets, or a tank with a Howitzer. Well, at least until end-war period, when the Pershing and the prototype Super Pershing rolled out.

Honestly the best thing about the Sherman Firefly was that it was there, on time, at Normandy. It doesn't really matter if the Sherman (76) was better, it wasn't there in sufficient quantity to make a difference, while the Firefly was.

If Saunders can use an American tank with a British gun, Anzio can use an Italian tank with an Italian gun.