Nuke: enmaided

BUR #19161 has been rejected.

nuke enmaided
remove implication enmaided -> alternate_costume

previous discussion: topic #19511
BUR #7198

The tag seems unnecessary. We don't have any tags for "character is dressed as miko / in serafuku / etc." so why a hyper-specific one for maid outfits?

Copy my response from the other topic:

The problem is, that if you have a series with a canon maid, especially Rem and Ram, you will be greeted with them, if you search for the character you want in a maid outfit. If I want to see Emilia in a maid outfit (and I really do), I can just search for Emilia_(re:zero) enmaided and be happy. Otherwise I have to use a tag combination just to exclude others.

Nuking the enmaided tag just makes it more work to search for specific images you want and is excluding Member level users of the possibility of finding what they want in a quick manner. (Not including, that they maybe don't even know the tag and still use the harder variant) Especially, because the "alternate costume + maid" search only works for them like that. They won't be able to search for anything else here, so also no characters.

If I recall correctly, the member-level search limit of only 2 tags isn't supposed to factor in to tag policy. I support this BUR - "I don't want to have to (for only a few select copyrights) type three whole tags to search for this concept" is a very poor reason to keep a tag around. For every single copyright with no canonical maid costumes, the "character_tag maid" search already does the job of "chartag enmaided"; adding alternate_costume for the occasional copyright with a popular maid character won't kill you.

Even if you count out 2 tag limit search, I still don't get what is bad about the tag in anyway. We, once again, get to a point where some want to nuke a tag, that is used actively and that has a very clear and useful definition. Alone in the last 3 days 20% of maid images were enmaided and it's not only a small userbase that uses the tag. It makes no sense to cripple the search of some users for no good reason at all.

also, quoting another reply form the last topic:

Nell said:

Bear in mind, whatever happens to enmaided should generally also happen to bespectacled and kemonomimi_mode to be consistent.

There are some copyrights with official maid costumes, which in theory can't be tagged enmaided since official alternate costume is mutually exclusively with alternate costume. But that doesn't stop people from doing it anyway; just take a look at official_alternate_costume alternate_costume solo maid. I'm sort of iffy on nuking a tag with tangible utility, but given that utility seems to apply only to a handful of copyrights, and it also causing tagging mishaps on others...

Nacha said:

Even if you count out 2 tag limit search, I still don't get what is bad about the tag in anyway. We, once again, get to a point where some want to nuke a tag, that is used actively and that has a very clear and useful definition. Alone in the last 3 days 20% of maid images were enmaided and it's not only a small userbase that uses the tag. It makes no sense to cripple the search of some users for no good reason at all.

Clear and useful wiki definitions are great; if only our users would actually read and follow them. As Talulah mentions, a number of users are unaware of the clause that enmaided is only for fan designs, which causes all sorts of headaches when it comes to official_alternate_costume and enmaided's implication to alternate_costume.

If enmaided is nuked, then "chartag maid" and "chartag maid alternate_costume" searches would begin to be used actively and have a very clear and useful purpose - they completely negate the reason for enmaided's existence. The argument could be made that "users will forget to tag alternate_costume"; however, users already don't tag enmaided (be it because they aren't aware of the tag or don't care), so that's a problem that will persist regardless and as such it shouldn't be used as an argument against either outcome of this BUR.

also, quoting another reply form the last topic:

Bear in mind, whatever happens to enmaided should generally also happen to bespectacled and kemonomimi_mode to be consistent.

Unfortunately, bespectacled and kemonomimi_mode don't have a perfectly usable tag like alternate_costume that completely negates the reason they exist. Aside from these two tags, there is genuinely no way to filter out results for a specific "chartag glasses/animal_ears" search when a copyright has other popular glasses-wearing or animal-eared characters.

AngryZapdos said:

Unfortunately, bespectacled and kemonomimi_mode don't have a perfectly usable tag like alternate_costume that completely negates the reason they exist. Aside from these two tags, there is genuinely no way to filter out results for a specific "chartag glasses/animal_ears" search when a copyright has other popular glasses-wearing or animal-eared characters.

As the VTuber costume thread has proven, using alternate costume or official alternate costume as a substitute is insufficient, forum #240669 - in its case, the lack of usability when it came to searching chartag official_alternate_costume was one reason that led to their official costumes getting their own tags. It stands to reason that enmaided works on that same principle, especially if a character has a lot of other alternate costumes fans draw them in/the already mentioned argument of its use for series with prominent maid characters.

Of course, one could argue that, with the official alternate costume point in mind, it might finally be time to remove that stipulation, remove the implication, and allow its use on official works... unless you want to start making a bunch of chartag_(maid) tags.

It's not like we even have similar tags for other instances of characters wearing a specific type of costume that they don't in canon. We don't have enswimsuited or enschooluniformed or enkimonod. Why should maids be any different?

AngryZapdos said:

Clear and useful wiki definitions are great; if only our users would actually read and follow them.

I get why people want to keep the tag, but as angryzapdos said, there's a non-insignificant amount of mistags of enmaided, there are several pages of gotoh_hitori enmaided even though vast majority of the posts clearly depict hitori's canon appearance in a maid outfit, and for the ones that depict a fan-made outfit on her, we come again to alternate costume doing the job already; and there were even a few cases for asuna_(blue_archive) of all characters, even if it was only a few and i already removed enmaided from the mistagged asuna posts, this makes me not be very optimistic about the use of the tag on other characters and copyrights, i wonder how many other very obvious mistags there are, and depending on that number, i feel it would break the validity of why people want to keep the tag

From what I understand significant amount of mistags doesn't deem a tag nuke-able if enough people tag or search for it (or evazion is not dissatisfied with its existence).

pronebone said:

From what I understand significant amount of mistags doesn't deem a tag nuke-able if enough people tag or search for it (or evazion is not dissatisfied with its existence).

Which is fair, but what i'm saying is that the amount of mistags may however be enough to invalidate the arguments in favor of keeping the tag, at least what i've understood of them.
See for example enmaided bocchi_the_rock! , it's almost entirely filled with canonical maid outfit appearances, meaning that at least for this particular copyright, enmaided is already rendered useless because of how the mistags outweigh the correct tags, it's just maid but with less results.
If the tag is to be kept, then something must be done so that kind of thing doesnt happen

If this gets nuked (which I doubt at this point) would we then nuke bespectacled and kemonomimi mode?

Veraducks said:

If this gets nuked (which I doubt at this point) would we then nuke bespectacled and kemonomimi mode?

AngryZapdos said:

Unfortunately, bespectacled and kemonomimi_mode don't have a perfectly usable tag like alternate_costume that completely negates the reason they exist. Aside from these two tags, there is genuinely no way to filter out results for a specific "chartag glasses/animal_ears" search when a copyright has other popular glasses-wearing or animal-eared characters.

Mayhem-Chan said:

gotoh_hitori enmaided

Well, as always the problem is that the enmaided wiki has メイド服 in the other names section, which means users are once again blindly clicking on translated tags while tagging. It's not a tag-bases problem, but a user-based. We shouldn't nuke a tag because of stupid users. We have to tell them, that they're doing something wrong, like for every other tag.

I assume that everyone not in favor of a nuke would be open to similar tags being made for other clothing? Otherwise, this seems like a case of wanting to maintain the Danbooru status quo with how massively enmaided sticks out like a sore thumb. As others have said, why does it exist? There is literally one non-booru website defining the word, and it has nothing to do with maids. We can’t use the excuse of “the outside world uses it this way”, and it’s not a real thing like knighting.

Non-solo posts that would turn up false positives and negatives in chartag maid alternate_costume are a concern. This seems like something a costume category would solve with near perfect accuracy, however ugly it may look…

Nacha said:

Well, as always the problem is that the enmaided wiki has メイド服 in the other names section, which means users are once again blindly clicking on translated tags while tagging. It's not a tag-bases problem, but a user-based. We shouldn't nuke a tag because of stupid users. We have to tell them, that they're doing something wrong, like for every other tag.

This is also true, but at some point it becomes more viable to remove the root problem than to keep addressing the symptoms. And we can’t ban all users, so that leaves the tag. It’s not comparable to off-shoulder/off_shoulder_x either (which Jerr breaks his back over) in that enmaided has several flaws and alternate costume exists.

BobTheBuilder_v1 said:

This is also true, but at some point it becomes more viable to remove the root problem than to keep addressing the symptoms.

This is a really bad argument when you consider how many people still get solo+solo_focus wrong. Or small_breasts+flat_chest. Should we nuke those tags, because users, even contributers+, don't get it right and it would make more sense to remove the root problem?
It would make sense, if the tag was heavily polluted by wrong images, but it's not.

Nacha said:

Should we nuke those tags, because users, even contributers+, don't get it right and it would make more sense to remove the root problem?

No, they should get banned. But bans for poor tagging/poisoning are not common at all without extreme circumstances. My main two cents was the first post, this is just another bullet point in the list of reasons enmaided is not our best tag. Does anyone actually want to sign up to be the enmaided police?

Nuking solo was actually proposed long ago, but people can actually point to valid reasons it's useful to have. If tags are barely useful to begin with AND they're being heavily mistagged, there is a much bigger case against them. Of course we should still do something about people getting it wrong, but if it's a regular occurrence from different users there's only so much you can do.

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.