Confetto said:
I hear "femboy" way more often. Also "trap" is ambiguous with the object...
I keep hearing this, but we've had the alias trap -> otoko no ko for over a decade and no evidence to back that up.
Posted under Tags
Confetto said:
I hear "femboy" way more often. Also "trap" is ambiguous with the object...
I keep hearing this, but we've had the alias trap -> otoko no ko for over a decade and no evidence to back that up.
I think the main thing for me is just that this tag has been this way for 11 years and it isn't causing any kind of present issues. Changing it doesn't fix anything, and is just unnecessarily rocking the boat on a controversial topic.
The term has been falling out of fashion to begin with, I haven't heard it used regularly in years, even outside my own spaces - it's always "femboy".
Femboy is a poor choice - otoko_no_ko is for "males that look female", while femboy simply means "feminine male". From the wiki:
Some people use "femboy" to describe anyone who appears or acts feminine, even if they don't convincingly pass as female. If you can correctly tell the character is male with complete certainty from the thumbnail alone without looking at the genitalia, it's not this.
If we use femboy as a tag, then prepare for users to start adding it to explicit posts where the character is clearly male, but has feminine features. Trap is the way to go; it's the most widely used term for the concept.
Although IRL femboys are clearly male, in an anime context, femboy characters are almost always just otoko no ko, so I think we should vote for that one. Google Images for "anime femboy" is mostly just onto no ko.
I don't think people tagging it wrong will be a problem as most users that already get it wrong probably ignore the otoko no ko alias autocomplete and submit femboy on the wrong posts anyway. So if the tag were renamed to trap you'd probably to remove and deprecate femboy or alias it to girly boy.
Kommandant said:
It's also been 11 years. More of a fuss should've been raised back then or reversed by a higher authority.
There was a fuss made about it when it happened. An admin, the highest authority below owner, forced the alias without giving a chance for a proper discussion, and then people spent months (iirc) arguing about it. The majority opinion was that the change was stupid and unnecessary, but the admin that did it dipped out of the discussion after making the alias.
I don't really know what the admin situation would have been like at the time that no one else would have cared enough or been willing to undo the change. I'm pretty sure if evazion or NNT had been around and had any say in the matter it never would have happened, though. People back then just did whatever, that's why we call it "Oldbooru".
Kommandant said:
how is this a problem?
It makes us look stupid. It also makes it annoying for newer users to seamlessly integrate into the site. It doesn't benefit anybody for us to be using a term no one else uses.
LQ said:
Although IRL femboys are clearly male, in an anime context, femboy characters are almost always just otoko no ko, so I think we should vote for that one. Google Images for "anime femboy" is mostly just onto no ko.
Mostly is not always. My google results show plenty of examples of characters that are unmistakably male but feminine. My understanding of femboy has always been "feminine boy", not "boy that's virtually indistinguishable from a girl."
Updated by blindVigil
Kommandant said:
how is this a problem?
It means it's unpopular, failed to catch on, and that there was no good reason to ever change it begin with. Reverting it to restore continuity with reverse trap until a superior alternative offers itself for both trap and reverse_trap seems preferable to Danbooru continuing to be the only site to use such a needlessly confusing, obscure, and foreign term.
Updated by Ultexia
To be honest, I’m still a bit concerned about the potential fallout from changing it back, but from a purely practical perspective, I can’t think of any good arguments against using “trap” instead of “otoko no ko” or “femboy.” And its status as a slur is also questionable, and at worst just seems like crossover between two separate groups. That’s part of why I’m neutral on the trap debate in terms of morality.
Besides, it’s not like eradicating “trap” will make us be seen in a more favorable light, considering what kind of images we allow here. Maybe this will cause us problems down the road, but I guess we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it.
All I'll say to this (as you can probably already guess my overall stance on this as the one who started the other thread to begin with) is that—while there isn't a lot—we do have posts under real_life otoko_no_ko and cosplay_photo otoko_no_ko. What I know as a Cisgender (who cannot reclaim slurs used against trans people) is that I've heard trans women upset about the word's continued usage in general, and the moment it starts being applied to real people is when we might hit hot water.
nonamethanks said:
Well, nobody but us uses "otoko no ko" in english, so it's a matter of which term we choose to replace it. Vote for whichever term you prefer.
Technically speaking, if we wanted to be correct here, we'd also have a BUR for otokonoko. Unlike "otoko no ko" which is just seen as a romanization of the Japanese, "otokonoko" has seen greater use in English, whether on Wikipedia and Wiktionary, AniList, and even translations ala Senpai wa Otokonoko just being "Senpai Is an Otokonoko" in English. The original topic that switched to otoko no ko even suggested it be "otokonoko" instead, with citations of its use in English (forum #96870), before whoever made the change used the explicit romanization instead.
Updated by Damian0358
nonamethanks said:
I keep hearing this, but we've had the alias trap -> otoko no ko for over a decade and no evidence to back that up.
It doesn't matter if our specific community broadly understands our usage of the term, it's still a common word with a common meaning of which our own usage greatly deviates from. This isn't like apple or other unqualified tags where we're following the common English usage of despite other usages of the word for characters or other things as well. This tag really should have a qualifier and the unqualified tag be depreciated if we're going to use "trap." When the initial alias of trap was done we didn't qualify tags as we do now, so qualifying it now is simply long overdue.
GreyOmega said:
It doesn't matter if our specific community broadly understands our usage of the term, it's still a common word with a common meaning of which our own usage greatly deviates from. This isn't like apple or other unqualified tags where we're following the common English usage of despite other usages of the word for characters or other things as well. This tag really should have a qualifier and the unqualified tag be depreciated if we're going to use "trap." When the initial alias of trap was done we didn't qualify tags as we do now, so qualifying it now is simply long overdue.
None of our tags for actual physical traps have even a thousand posts. otoko_no_ko has almost 70,000. The vast, vast majority of users searching for "trap" are looking for one thing, and it's not those things that Leon keeps stepping on in RE4.
nonamethanks said:
I keep hearing this, but we've had the alias trap -> otoko no ko for over a decade and no evidence to back that up.
Reversing the alias would just result in more confusion since it wouldn't be autocorrected to otoko no ko. The tag should just be deprecated and become a disambiguation page.
AngryZapdos said:
None of our tags for actual physical traps have even a thousand posts. otoko_no_ko has almost 70,000. The vast, vast majority of users searching for "trap" are looking for one thing, and it's not those things that Leon keeps stepping on in RE4.
And using a tag like trap (person) doesn't change their ability to easily type trap to find the posts, so what's your point?