Posted under Tags
GreyOmega said:
And using a tag like trap (person) doesn't change their ability to easily type trap to find the posts, so what's your point?
Using trap_(person) has its own (much less imagined) risk of confusion:
We already use this qualifier for specific people; users will be asking "who is this "Trap" I keep hearing about?". As such, it's yet another inferior suggestion.
AngryZapdos said:
Using trap_(person) has its own (much less imagined) risk of confusion:
We already use this qualifier for specific people; users will be asking "who is this "Trap" I keep hearing about?". As such, it's yet another inferior suggestion.
The qualifier doesn't even have to be (person), thus the word "like" that I used to indicate it was not specifically that but something like it. As for if the suggestion is inferior or not, that is subjective but from my view using trap unqualified as it has been has always been the more inferior solution. Frankly given the number of posts, it'll always be in the top results so your idea it'll be confusing, especially when it's not even a character tag feels like a massive stretch.
nonamethanks said:
If we were worrying about that we'd have bigger fish to fry (loli, petite, bestiality, guro...)
Yes, that’s basically my point.
Ylimegirl said:
All I'll say to this (as you can probably already guess my overall stance on this as the one who started the other thread to begin with) is that—while there isn't a lot—we do have posts under real_life otoko_no_ko and cosplay_photo otoko_no_ko. What I know as a Cisgender (who cannot reclaim slurs used against trans people) is that I've heard trans women upset about the word's continued usage in general, and the moment it starts being applied to real people is when we might hit hot water.
We know there are trans women upset with the word, but is this a shared belief among the majority of trans women? Is it used as a slur outside of anime communities? I just want to make sure this isn’t like that supposedly racist “black hole” comment a politician made once.
“Trap” in this context sounds similar to “queer” to me. Some in those groups see it as offensive, others have no problem with it, and some even use it to describe themselves. So I also don’t think it’s right as a cisgender person to assume it should always be seen as a slur. It’s a yellow light, not a red light like the n-word.
I’m not saying no one ever uses it as a slur, but I’m wondering whether people used it as such because people thought it was without regard to actual history. In other words, the idea of it being a slur made it an actual slur.
I agree that using trap on real people, or photos at least, is problematic, and I think they can be found easily enough with crossdressing anyway.
Blank_User said:
Yes, that’s basically my point.
We know there are trans women upset with the word, but is this a shared belief among the majority of trans women? Is it used as a slur outside of anime communities? I just want to make sure this isn’t like that supposedly racist “black hole” comment a politician made once.
I will say that it does seem to be the common belief among trans communities, at least from what I've seen - I'm not a trans woman, but I am trans and interact with trans communities quite a bit.
There are definitely some who do not agree. (There are also a minority who view "femboy" as a slur, but that's a very small minority that tends to get loudly disagreed with.)
“Trap” in this context sounds similar to “queer” to me. Some in those groups see it as offensive, others have no problem with it, and some even use it to describe themselves. So I also don’t think it’s right as a cisgender person to assume it should always be seen as a slur. It’s a yellow light, not a red light like the n-word.
I’m not saying no one ever uses it as a slur, but I’m wondering whether people used it as such because people thought it was without regard to actual history. In other words, the idea of it being a slur made it an actual slur.
The comparison to queer is closer, I think, but still slightly off - the common opinion towards queer skews positive nowadays. But the point about the term being controversial even within LGBT spaces is correct, not everyone agrees on the word "trap" being a slur, even if it's a commonly held belief.
I think the main issue is that the use of the word to refer to anime femboys (barring specific cases like post-Strive Bridget) largely isn't related to why it's often considered a slur among trans communities. Like I said in the other thread, that belief comes more from its use for real life trans pornstars such as on the subreddit r/traps, and the uncomfortable similarities to the trans panic defense.
It's kind of like, two separate but related uses of the same word conflicting, I guess? The "overlapping" comment earlier in the thread had a good point.
I find it pretty telling that this whole discussion is about the feelings of a community that only has a tangent and accidental relation to anime traps, while the opinion of people who actually browse this tag dick in hand seems to be of no concern here.
Next we'll rename bara to big gay guys because we wouldn't want to offend versailles no bara fans.
nonamethanks said:
I find it pretty telling that this whole discussion is about the feelings of a community that only has a tangent and accidental relation to anime traps, while the opinion of people who actually browse this tag dick in hand seems to be of no concern here.
Next we'll rename bara to big gay guys because we wouldn't want to offend versailles no bara fans.
My above message isn't meant to be an argument for or against any of the presented options, regardless of what my own personal opinion is. I was just trying to answer Blank User's questions. 
It is relevant given it's the original reasoning behind the alias. And yes, fans of the trope's opinions are relevant too, they can both be relevant to the discussion. Nuanced discussion is useful for everyone.
Confetto said:
It is relevant given it's the original reasoning behind the alias. And yes, fans of the trope's opinions are relevant too, they can both be relevant to the discussion. Nuanced discussion is useful for everyone.
It shouldn't have been relevant, though. 11 years ago it was unilaterally decided that only the opinions of a community separate from the site's own community mattered on this issue, despite the fact that community had never even voiced any complaints toward the site. No one was complaining about the tag trap before it was changed, just like no one was complaining about reverse trap before a BUR was proposed to change it solely for consistency with its counterpart tag.
I think its annoying to search the japanese tag for many so femboy or trap are an improvement.
blindVigil said:
It shouldn't have been relevant, though. 11 years ago it was unilaterally decided that only the opinions of a community separate from the site's own community mattered on this issue, despite the fact that community had never even voiced any complaints toward the site. No one was complaining about the tag trap before it was changed, just like no one was complaining about reverse trap before a BUR was proposed to change it solely for consistency with its counterpart tag.
I mean, I absolutely do disagree with the way the original alias was carried out, don't get me wrong. Unilaterally changing a tag like that is always a bad idea. I just also don't think it's fair to completely disregard people discussing the potential concerns they may have about the word "trap" and controversy it might have - open discussion is important, and that's the whole reason the original alias was handled badly.
You can also see from the votes on the BUR that the site's community itself isn't universally in favor of the term - the votes are pretty split. (Currently it's +23 / -21)
nonamethanks said:
Next we'll rename bara to big gay guys because we wouldn't want to offend versailles no bara fans.
There’s a big difference between offending a fandom and offending a marginalized group.
Confetto said:
I will say that it does seem to be the common belief among trans communities, at least from what I've seen - I'm not a trans woman, but I am trans and interact with trans communities quite a bit.
There are definitely some who do not agree. (There are also a minority who view "femboy" as a slur, but that's a very small minority that tends to get loudly disagreed with.)
If the majority of trans people really do consider it a slur, then that’s a problem. If they are unable to separate the anime community’s meaning from the other negative meanings, they will effectively be shut out. I think the intention behind the otoko no ko alias was to prevent this, though I do agree the admin should’ve heard the others out first. Ideally, trans people shouldn’t have to choose between feeling like they belong and using this site.
On the other hand, we can’t ignore the logistic issues with using tags other than trap. In the end, we are going to have to make some people unhappy. If we can’t find any better terms, we must make a choice. We either risk shutting out people who are part of both communities, or make it harder for fans of this content to find it. I don’t believe all of the downvoters are ignorant of the logistics. Rather, they decided being welcoming to the trans community was worth it.
Again, this depends on whether there’s general agreement among the trans community of trap being a slur. If it isn’t, then it’s basically a non-issue.
Why is it offensive to people, why should we care as well? Its easier to search, and the terms trap / femboy are used far more commonly than a niche japanese term.
I get swapping child on child to kodomo doushi for the optics, but this instance is absurd. Payment processors arent coming back or leaving over this lol.
Freshblink said:
Why is it offensive to people, why should we care as well?
I for one, fully support the change.
What is even the point of reversing the alias after all these years other than sticking it to the people who want to rename reverse trap in the other thread, if the real concern is that no one outside of japan uses otoko no ko, the we should just alias it to femboy which is what most people online call traps in the nowadays.
Mexiguy said:
What is even the point of reversing the alias after all these years other than sticking it to the people who want to rename reverse trap in the other thread, if the real concern is that no one outside of japan uses otoko no ko, the we should just alias it to femboy which is what most people online call traps in the nowadays.
It's also incidentally the option evazion supported in the original topic that switched to otoko no ko, per forum #99446.
Updated by Damian0358
Literally anything is better than OnK so while there's the non-passing issue mentioned above I still think that's a preferable change.
I don't think the fact that it's a Japanese term should count against it. The site already uses a bunch of Japanese loan words/titles that people unfamiliar with the original source material/ACG wouldn't know. Personally, I don't like this "localization" to western ACG fandom culture bent. There are already aliases to integrate people into using the Japanese terminology on Danbooru, no need to actively change tag names to remove even this relatively tiny bit of gatekeeping.
Even disregarding the slur argument, I've always liked otokonoko because it's less ambiguous then trap, more specific then femboy and is the actual term used in Japan. Even before I started using Danbooru as often it was my personally preferred term and I rarely spoke with anyone who was confused on what I meant. It also has been getting use in non-Danbooru English sources recently, as people have said, like the translation of Senpai is an Otokonoko.
If we decide to switch to a different term then I would at least prefer not to use femboy due to it's broader connotations. And if we do switch back to trap I think it would be fine without a qualifier, even if I don't see it used as often these days. I really doubt that anyone would be all that confused over it.
i only come here instead of gelbooru specifically because this site doesn't use the term trap. trap's just a fuckass meme term. i don't even personally think of it as a slur so much as it's just been a stupid meme from its inception, though i get why people have a problem with it and their concerns are pretty legitimate. kind of insane people think there isn't a legitimate argument against it ... it's literally just because of the admiral ackbar image
as for what is used more now, go on Twitter and search #trap and #femboy. right now the newest #trap tweet also has #femboy and there are like a dozen tweets that use #femboy posted more recently. almost every tweet that uses #trap also uses #femboy actually. there's your evidence. more 4chan threads using femboy than trap rn as well afaict, and not one using trap without also using femboy
There's exactly nothing wrong with the word "trap". Saying it's a "slur" is like saying "man" is a slur, because some people call trans women men and it's insulting.
