There's exactly nothing wrong with the word "trap". Saying it's a "slur" is like saying "man" is a slur, because some people call trans women men and it's insulting.
I mean, over the years since its inception it has been used to attack and demean trans women by using the “HA! WOMAN IS ACTUALLY MAN! :D” shtick which I agree leans dangerously close to the panic defense.
As for if it should be changed or not, I’d say keep using the current Japanese term until we can think of a better term for it. “Femboy” in my honest opinion wouldn't work since we have tomboy, which isn’t a reverse of how the tag is used.
The fact that it's such an annoying conversation tells me to just use femboy and alias the other two to and call it a day. It's simple, effective, and clean.
rule34.xxx: otoko_no_ko has 24k results, pretty much only from us, and 4.5k for one-word. Trap has 88k results. Femboy has nearly 300k.
Googling otoko no ko directs you to Wikipedia and several other wikis, images are mostly anime covers and other articles. Trap gets you movies, Netflix, and music, images suggest adding "anime" to the search which will get you Astolfo and Felix pics (as well multiple articles and links to site discussions saying you should stop using the term, lmao). Femboy gets you articles, videos, thirst posts, etc and is the only one of the three that made safesearch go "yo hol' up".
This tracks among porn sites (IRL and hentai equally, strangely), as well. Femboy and trap get about the same results, but otoko no ko gets like one thing and then a bunch of Oshi no Ko stuff. On Gelbooru, femboy is a depreciated tagm but there's quite a few otoko/trap images in there that are not tagged properly (gelbooru in a nutshell.
Basically: It's weird that we (still) use otoko, even though it's a specific JP-specific term (let's be real for a moment, a lot of our oldbooru stuff stems from glasses-adjusting, snorting, psuedo-highbrow weeaboo habits that die hard) that is at least reasonably understandable. Is it weird enough to force a change? Eeeeeeeh, not truly needed due to aliases. Other sites can just deal (they have been!). Should it be changed it to trap? Only if you're ok with dealing with futa/newhalf style shitfits and kowtowing to specific other sites. Should it be changed to femboy? If we have to change it, this would likely be the one with the least friction overall.
Yeah, I think femboy is probably the way to go. It shouldn't matter too much if it's a bit inaccurate if that's what most people are using to search for this kind of content anyway.
There is still the problem of finding a female equivalent, but maybe we don't need to. If you believe some of the other accounts in this thread, "reverse trap" is somehow less offensive than "trap." I don't see how sticking "reverse" at the front of "trap" is supposed to make it less offensive since it's still being used in the same way except toward female characters, but whatever. The point is that we probably don't need to worry about changing reverse trap until we have evidence there is a more popular term for those characters.
There is still the problem of finding a female equivalent, but maybe we don't need to. If you believe some of the other accounts in this thread, "reverse trap" is somehow less offensive than "trap." I don't see how sticking "reverse" at the front of "trap" is supposed to make it less offensive since it's still being used in the same way except toward female characters, but whatever. The point is that we probably don't need to worry about changing reverse trap until we have evidence there is a more popular term for those characters.
Well, "reverse femboy" hasn't been proposed in topic #31690 yet.
I'd support reverse_femboy if that ends up being what this gets changed to. There is no precise female alternative we should just slap reverse on the front of whatever is decided which is why if both these are rejected reverse_otoko_no_ko is my solution for that tag.
For consideration on femboy, I've noticed artists sometimes use the term for art we wouldn't tag it on such as post #9072736post #8949010post #6807991 (note the commentaries) though since the alias for femboy is in place maybe that's a non-issue.
On Gelbooru, femboy is a depreciated tagm but there's quite a few otoko/trap images in there that are not tagged properly (gelbooru in a nutshell.
I made a conscious decision to deprecate femboy rather than alias it to trap on Gelbooru because its usage was not analogous to trap/otoko_no_ko's purpose. Users were continuing to add it to posts where clearly male characters simply have feminine traits rather than posts where male characters actually pass for female, meaning an alias would only end up poisoning trap. Since deprecating a tag on Gelbooru does not prevent users from adding it to posts, users are able to periodically go through femboy to move the appropriate posts to trap while removing the tag from the remainder.
If Danbooru ends up using femboy over trap, then you can expect a similar stream of mistags. It's simply the expected result of applying a specific, Danbooru-exclusive definition to a word with much broader use amongst the general internet population, which is why my vote is for trap.
derivatives like nhentai also use this because they are just mirrors, but curiously they all have aliases from "trap" to it, probably because of the popularity of the term
nhentai does not have an alias femboy -> tomgirl, but e-hentai does
Does anyone have a list of notable anime sites using femboy? I already know nobody but us is using otoko no ko, but I'd rather see what everyone else's doing, and I'm trying to compile a list. If nobody else's using femboy either, that's a big minus for that option.
We can probably ignore very downstream sites that import from multiple boorus (rule34, tbib etc) because they're an absolute clusterfuck, unless they actually aliased the terms away. I see rule34 uses all three for example.
derivatives like nhentai also use this because they are just mirrors, but curiously they all have aliases from "trap" to it, probably because of the popularity of the term
nhentai does not have an alias femboy -> tomgirl, but e-hentai does
Does anyone have a list of notable anime sites using femboy? I already know nobody but us is using otoko no ko, but I'd rather see what everyone else's doing, and I'm trying to compile a list. If nobody else's using femboy either, that's a big minus for that option.
I hope the point of this list is merely for comparison sake and not as grounds to justify approving the reversal of the alias while ignoring the current vote tally which favors retaining the current naming.
Anime News Network's wiki like MAL and Kitsu doesn't get more specific than crossdressing for their categorizations.
GreyOmega said: which favors retaining the current naming.
According to who? Exactly 17 people have voted against both BURs, the rest is in favor of either rename. There's a lot of downvotes only because a lot of people are upvoting one while downvoting the other.
More details
import requests
trap_data = requests.get("https://danbooru.donmai.us/forum_post_votes.json?commit=Search&search[forum_post_id]=349526&limit=1000").json()
femboy_data = requests.get("https://danbooru.donmai.us/forum_post_votes.json?commit=Search&search[forum_post_id]=349527&limit=1000").json()
trap_pos = {u["creator_id"] for u in trap_data if u["score"] == 1}
trap_neg = {u["creator_id"] for u in trap_data if u["score"] == -1}
trap_meh = {u["creator_id"] for u in trap_data if u["score"] == 0}
femboy_pos = {u["creator_id"] for u in femboy_data if u["score"] == 1}
femboy_neg = {u["creator_id"] for u in femboy_data if u["score"] == -1}
femboy_meh = {u["creator_id"] for u in femboy_data if u["score"] == 0}
pro_trap = len(trap_pos)
pro_femboy = len(femboy_pos)
pro_status_quo = len(femboy_neg & trap_neg)
dont_care = len(femboy_meh & trap_meh)
print(f"Trap: {pro_trap}; Femboy: {pro_femboy}; Otoko no ko: {pro_status_quo}; Don't care: {dont_care}")
Actual usage is 137 to 708 I believe, but there's a lot of non-overlap. Kind of a not super consistently tagging website in general though.
It's been a while since I've been active over there, but IIRC usage means the amount of manga with the tag, while "agreed" is the amount of individual votes. otokonoko has more additions than votes, which means nobody's actually using the tag aside from those who are adding it to series.
According to who? Exactly 17 people have voted against both BURs, the rest is in favor of either rename. There's a lot of downvotes only because a lot of people are upvoting one while downvoting the other.
More details
import requests
trap_data = requests.get("https://danbooru.donmai.us/forum_post_votes.json?commit=Search&search[forum_post_id]=349526&limit=1000").json()
femboy_data = requests.get("https://danbooru.donmai.us/forum_post_votes.json?commit=Search&search[forum_post_id]=349527&limit=1000").json()
trap_pos = {u["creator_id"] for u in trap_data if u["score"] == 1}
trap_neg = {u["creator_id"] for u in trap_data if u["score"] == -1}
trap_meh = {u["creator_id"] for u in trap_data if u["score"] == 0}
femboy_pos = {u["creator_id"] for u in femboy_data if u["score"] == 1}
femboy_neg = {u["creator_id"] for u in femboy_data if u["score"] == -1}
femboy_meh = {u["creator_id"] for u in femboy_data if u["score"] == 0}
pro_trap = len(trap_pos)
pro_femboy = len(femboy_pos)
pro_status_quo = len(femboy_neg & trap_neg)
dont_care = len(femboy_meh & trap_meh)
print(f"Trap: {pro_trap}; Femboy: {pro_femboy}; Otoko no ko: {pro_status_quo}; Don't care: {dont_care}")
It's poor to treat separate votes as part of the same tally, as you don't know the motivations on why one voted in one versus the way voted in the other. If you wanted to determine this, then a multiple choice voting system would be better or better yet a rank voting system. As it stands at minimum the majority does not support the usage of the term trap for the tag, and that's all you should draw from the first vote. otoko no ko -> trap: Votes: +46 / -65. The way you're laying it out, it comes off as explicitly as grounds to justify that trap should be used, because more people voted for it by ignoring that more people voted to not use it.
It's poor to treat separate votes as part of the same tally, as you don't know the motivations on why one voted in one versus the way voted in the other. If you wanted to determine this, then a multiple choice voting system would be better or better yet a rank voting system. As it stands at minimum the majority does not support the usage of the term trap for the tag, and that's all you should draw from the first vote. otoko no ko -> trap: Votes: +46 / -65. The way you're laying it out, it comes off as explicitly as grounds to justify that trap should be used, because more people voted for it by ignoring that more people voted to not use it.
It's similarly bad form to consider a downvote for trap matched by an upvote for femboy (or vice versa) as a vote against the rename. We're not robots, we can draw conclusions without having to follow bad logic. The data's all there and you can analyze it at any depth you want. It's fairly obvious that most people want the tag name to change, and only a very small minority prefers the status quo. The large amount of downvotes is only due to people picking one option and downvoting the other. If we had only offered one option (no matter whether femboy or trap), the tally would be positive. Picking the option everyone hates (and an option that was not voted on in the first place when it was changed) because people are split (and not even evenly!) between two other choices makes no sense. At best it's disingenuous, at worst it's dishonest.
Furthermore, the list of sites that actually use these terms not only must be considered now, but should've also been considered when it was decided whether to rename this tag in the first place, as it would've been immediately obvious how stupid the whole thing was. That the tag was changed despite everyone else using other terms (and to the wrong spelling too!) is nothing short of blind and pathetic, and it should be laughed upon just like we now laugh at old decisions like ito_noizi -> itou noiji or bento -> obentou, especially given that it amounted to no change in the rest of the booru ecosystem, as everyone else rightfully rejected this change and kept the term that people actually use.
We are the only english site that uses "otoko no ko" (that's not straight-up lifting and rehosting our content). For any other tag that's the only reason we'd need to rename this. The only reason there's even a vote is that the tag is so large and so old, and so that people can decide what to actually rename it to this time rather than to keep this poor excuse of a name.
Trap is an outdated term that I find pretty distasteful. I don't care how many other websites use it, whether or not it's the popular decision with other site admins doesn't mean it's the best choice. It also seems moot to me because it's still an alias here so it shouldn't cause anyone any problems if that's what they're trying to look up.
In particular, if this site is going to continue permitting uploads of cosplay / real life people such as this, then I strongly prefer we go with a term that doesn't connotate us referring to real, living people as "traps" without their consent.
I don't like the vote math going on here either. I downvoted the trap BUR because I'm against using the term "trap" specifically, and I'd imagine most people who downvoted that one but not the other BUR did so for the same reason. If the only option presented was "trap", I would downvote still, and I doubt that only applies to me.
