Jack was murdered when she was 16, but looked like a kid because she was malnourished, so what would she look like as a regular 16 year old?
That isn't her lore, in the fate series Jack the Ripper was a vengeful spirit. She was the embodiment of the dead children of prostitutes. They formed into a single entity to get vengeance on the mothers who aborted them.
That isn't her lore, in the fate series Jack the Ripper was a vengeful spirit. She was the embodiment of the dead children of prostitutes. They formed into a single entity to get vengeance on the mothers who aborted them.
She wasn't a vengeful spirit, she was technically a living curse, as an amalgam of over 80,000 wraiths. If she was just a wraith in "life" then she wouldn't even qualify as a psudo-servant since she wasn't real to begin with, she'd be a Phantom.
"Eventually, a magus discovered that the culprit of the bizarre killings was of a magical nature and extinguished her." Ok so I was wrong about how she died. Also, apparently according to canon, this iteration of Jack has been completely destroyed by Jeanne and this particular version of Jack the Ripper can never be summoned again.
She wasn't a vengeful spirit, she was technically a living curse, as an amalgam of over 80,000 wraiths. If she was just a wraith in "life" then she wouldn't even qualify as a psudo-servant since she wasn't real to begin with, she'd be a Phantom.
"Eventually, a magus discovered that the culprit of the bizarre killings was of a magical nature and extinguished her." Ok so I was wrong about how she died. Also, apparently according to canon, this iteration of Jack has been completely destroyed by Jeanne and this particular version of Jack the Ripper can never be summoned again.
She wasn't a vengeful spirit, she was technically a living curse, as an amalgam of over 80,000 wraiths. If she was just a wraith in "life" then she wouldn't even qualify as a psudo-servant since she wasn't real to begin with, she'd be a Phantom.
"Eventually, a magus discovered that the culprit of the bizarre killings was of a magical nature and extinguished her." Ok so I was wrong about how she died. Also, apparently according to canon, this iteration of Jack has been completely destroyed by Jeanne and this particular version of Jack the Ripper can never be summoned again.
@cd_young then how can we summon her? is it alt time stuff or something else?
@cd_young then how can we summon her? is it alt time stuff or something else?
The Throne is beyond time and space. It is nigh impossible to remove someone from it, with one famous exception. She might be "destroyed" in one world, but I seriously doubt that holds true across the kaleidoscope. Only the World itself is even capable of summoning the actual Heroic Spirit/Anti Hero itself. What is summoned in a Holy Grail War such as in Apocrypha is a copy which sends information back to the Throne upon its destruction. This may or may not leave an impression on the Spirit in question.
The Throne is beyond time and space. It is nigh impossible to remove someone from it, with one famous exception. She might be "destroyed" in one world, but I seriously doubt that holds true across the kaleidoscope. Only the World itself is even capable of summoning the actual Heroic Spirit/Anti Hero itself. What is summoned in a Holy Grail War such as in Apocrypha is a copy which sends information back to the Throne upon its destruction. This may or may not leave an impression on the Spirit in question.
Since the throne is beyond time and space that means that it is reachable from all timelines, with this version of Jack being Destroyed and unsummonable, that clearly means she is unsummonable from any and every timeline.
Greatweiss said:
@cd_young then how can we summon her? is it alt time stuff or something else?
Since the throne is beyond time and space that means that it is reachable from all timelines, with this version of Jack being Destroyed and unsummonable, that clearly means she is unsummonable from any and every timeline.
We can't.
Then how the hell can we summon her in grand order?! Is it non-canon then or is there a loop hole?? @cd_young
Then how the hell can we summon her in grand order?! Is it non-canon then or is there a loop hole?? @cd_young
Because Grand Order *Isn't* canon. Although, i it is Canon, the Chanldea's summoning system is different then the normal HGW ritual, since it can summon gods, alternate versions of known servants and clearly incompatible people such as characters who are still alive or who never existed as servants.
Since the throne is beyond time and space that means that it is reachable from all timelines, with this version of Jack being Destroyed and unsummonable, that clearly means she is unsummonable from any and every timeline.
Doesn't change that deleting someone from the throne is next to impossible due to how it works in HGWs. A copy is sent forth, the original stays behind, what happens to the copy does not happen to the original. The original effectively gets a recording of what happened to its copy, that's it. A certain doctor is the only person known to have actually done it, to my knowledge. The Throne is more of a hoarder than even Gilgamesh. What can happen, however, is that "wraiths" who are summoned may end up in a state where they specifically cannot be summoned again, but the Servant can be summoned. This is what happens to any Hassan of Serenity summon who finds love, for instance, before being destroyed in a HGW. The "Serenity the found love" basically sleeps eternally with that, and a new iteration of "Hassan of Serenity" is summoned the next time. Same quiet, shy, poisonous purple-haired assassin, but effectively a new summon. Going off what I remember of her translated interlude, but that is the gist of it.
cd_young said:
Because Grand Order *Isn't* canon. Although, i it is Canon, the Chanldea's summoning system is different then the normal HGW ritual, since it can summon gods, alternate versions of known servants and clearly incompatible people such as characters who are still alive or who never existed as servants.
At the very least, there is an explanation for how Psuedo Servants can be summoned. The Singularities effectively blurred the lines between eras, and everyone was effectively dead even if it hadn't "happened" yet. This also allowed Heroic Spirits who would ordinarily never, ever be summonable, such as Scathach, to be summoned. It also allowed the head priestess of Ishtar's temple to effectively "fish" for a soul compatible with Ishtar (and, unbeknownst to her, Ereshkigal) to summon her goddess (the result of which is the same one we summon). Others, like Artemis, just straight-up hijack a summon and take a corresponding hit to their Divinity and other traits as a result. Stheno and Euryale are, if I recall correctly, bunreis, and also the only Divinities either not A) Hijacking a Summon (Artemis), B) Pseudo Servants (Quetzalcoatl) or C) Suppressing their Divinity (Romulus).
Naturally, Gameplay and Story segregation is in full effect between Part 1 and Part 2.
That being said, do not recall the explanation for the likes of Alexander, but Alexander was in goddamn Septem. Pretty much everyone else in that court is hailing from other parts of the Kaleidoscope, though.
Doesn't change that deleting someone from the throne is next to impossible due to how it works in HGWs. A copy is sent forth, the original stays behind, what happens to the copy does not happen to the original. The original effectively gets a recording of what happened to its copy, that's it. A certain doctor is the only person known to have actually done it, to my knowledge. The Throne is more of a hoarder than even Gilgamesh. What can happen, however, is that "wraiths" who are summoned may end up in a state where they specifically cannot be summoned again, but the Servant can be summoned. This is what happens to any Hassan of Serenity summon who finds love, for instance, before being destroyed in a HGW. The "Serenity the found love" basically sleeps eternally with that, and a new iteration of "Hassan of Serenity" is summoned the next time. Same quiet, shy, poisonous purple-haired assassin, but effectively a new summon. Going off what I remember of her translated interlude, but that is the gist of it.
Don't take this up with me. TypeMOON are the ones that said Loli-Jack is unsummonable in normal wars.
Don't take this up with me. TypeMOON are the ones that said Loli-Jack is unsummonable in normal wars.
It's less that Loli Jack can't ever be summoned, and more the specific version that is from *Fate/Apocrypha* can't be summoned. All this means is that even if the conditions were exactly the same, and all of those evil spirits amalgamated once more, it would result in a different Jack the Ripper.
It doesn't say how different, or that you just flat-out can't summon Loli Jack. You're just not going to get the one from Fate/Apocrypha. You could end up with a Jack that is remarkably similar to the one that was in Fate/Apocrypha, but it would differ in not having gone through those events. She wouldn't remember any of that because it's a different person. Like a clone, I guess? Or a copy. It's pulled from the same base state as the Fate/Apocrypha one was.
Also, it's time for an inconvenient truth (well, not for me or most people) that more people need to accept; Fate/Grand Order is canon. The Nasuverse is literally a multiverse. Fate/Grand Order is one of them. In the same way that Fate/Extra is it's own thing. All of these existing do not override the others and make them non-canon. Fate/Extella is it's own thing, Fate/Stay Night is it's own thing, etc.
Well said, since this iteration of Jack is an amalgamum of 80,000 souls, it's possible that one of the 79,999 other children in her container becomes the new face of jack while the original Jack face regenerates since, and this is established that all souls recorded in the throne are indestructible. (there will just be a living modern age child that looks similar to Jack since she's been reincarnated due to Jeanne cleansing her.)
The summery is of all these big intelligent words is that Apocrypha!Jack is not summonable because Jeanne blammed her so hard that specific instance of her is no longer available for summoning - not that I would really want to, with that Mental Pollution built up she is terrifying. Jack fresh off the Throne 3D printer, on the other hand, is a much lower stabbing risk, so best to adopt a fresh one if you want to be a mom
The summery is of all these big intelligent words is that Apocrypha!Jack is not summonable because Jeanne blammed her so hard that specific instance of her is no longer available for summoning - not that I would really want to, with that Mental Pollution built up she is terrifying. Jack fresh off the Throne 3D printer, on the other hand, is a much lower stabbing risk, so best to adopt a fresh one if you want to be a mom
It's less that Loli Jack can't ever be summoned, and more the specific version that is from *Fate/Apocrypha* can't be summoned. All this means is that even if the conditions were exactly the same, and all of those evil spirits amalgamated once more, it would result in a different Jack the Ripper.
It doesn't say how different, or that you just flat-out can't summon Loli Jack. You're just not going to get the one from Fate/Apocrypha. You could end up with a Jack that is remarkably similar to the one that was in Fate/Apocrypha, but it would differ in not having gone through those events. She wouldn't remember any of that because it's a different person. Like a clone, I guess? Or a copy. It's pulled from the same base state as the Fate/Apocrypha one was.
Also, it's time for an inconvenient truth (well, not for me or most people) that more people need to accept; Fate/Grand Order is canon. The Nasuverse is literally a multiverse. Fate/Grand Order is one of them. In the same way that Fate/Extra is it's own thing. All of these existing do not override the others and make them non-canon. Fate/Extella is it's own thing, Fate/Stay Night is it's own thing, etc.
They have even stated that all things for Fate, including fan works are cannon because of that multiverse aspect. And I wish I could remember where I saw that statement.
They have even stated that all things for Fate, including fan works are cannon because of that multiverse aspect. And I wish I could remember where I saw that statement.
Probably fro an interview about fate/strange fake, since that started as noncanon fanon, and was canonized.
