...You lost me.

MechWarrior said:

...You lost me.

Need to call over Rin with a flow chart.

You know what's hilarious about this? The commentary. You literally have a better chance understanding Fate by reading doujins and other fan-creations that managed to filter out redundancy than going through the official stuff.

I love Fate, but when you can make a statement like that...

NegativeSoul said:

You know what's hilarious about this? The commentary. You literally have a better chance understanding Fate by reading doujins and other fan-creations that managed to filter out redundancy than going through the official stuff.

I love Fate, but when you can make a statement like that...

"Its settings are poorly executed" couldn't be more accurate. Fate is the product of indie VN writers, and it's really obvious both in how the characters (western ones mostly) are named and how often pre-established rules are changed or just flat out ignored.

blindVigil said:

"Its settings are poorly executed" couldn't be more accurate. Fate is the product of indie VN writers, and it's really obvious both in how the characters (western ones mostly) are named and how often pre-established rules are changed or just flat out ignored.

We just call those “spinoffs” or “alternate universe”. You see, establishing and keeping with a deep lore and setting for their franchise is good but so is making A FUCKLOAD OF MONEY.

Yes, although, there is an underlying and constant theme though out the series which is that pretty much everything that happened in the Fate world, it’s because of Aliens.

It's basically like Kingdom Hearts. The writers never really have a plan going forward but every installment feels compelled to add a new mechanic to the universe even if it doesn't make sense. Seemingly because the original writer operates on the logic of "the longer the paragraphs the deeper my story is".
The first one was already convoluted but digestable, but once you got to the tenth installment everything is a clusterfuck and no rules mean jack because we make new rules solely for the sake of breaking them.

Then the franchise became split because no one can decide if a "true Fate fan" is a gacha-happy whale who gets baited into emptying his bank account everytime new swimsuit Servants are released, or someone who can hold a full semester of college lectures on how the universe works and how it connects to Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai and can name all the useless Master names in Apocrypha.

azurelorochi said:
...or someone who can hold a full semester of college lectures on how the universe works and how it connects to Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai...

I was under the assumption that it all takes place in the same universe just in different locations.

darkspire91 said:

I was under the assumption that it all takes place in the same universe just in different locations.

You think that, but then they pull the another timeline or another universe card again because they want to have their cake and eat it. Treat every character you see from their other franchise if you ever see in one of their franchise as pretty much a different character even if they are pretty much the same exact character.
Blonde Rin taught me that from Extra.

Hell, we don’t even know which Fate universe is even the right universe cause there’s at least 5 of them.

darkspire91 said:

I was under the assumption that it all takes place in the same universe just in different locations.

They made a muiltiverse out of the series by introducing the "True Magic" in the Heaven's feel route by introducing the "Jeweled Sword of Zeldrich" which draws mana from alternate dimensions, and then Zeldritch himself showing up,

darkspire91 said:

I was under the assumption that it all takes place in the same universe just in different locations.

It used to take place in the same universe (for example the story of Fate/visual novel started when Tsukihime ended etc.), especially in the early days (before FGO and maby even Fate Extra). But ever since FGO came along, Nasu decided to retcon it so that it doesn't anymore...

It always baffles me how little Japanese devs care about things like world-building and continuity. Forgetting important details, retconning things to be replaced with the new hotness, making protagonists flat but writing a million-page backstory about an antagonist and a million-page backstory about a sword that appear for 10 minutes in one episode...
Lots of animé is just a mess, and if you try to point it out to a dev, then they'll give some B.S. artistic excuse like "It's an alternate universe" or "Just because it's not perfect doesn't mean it should be fixed". And people wonder why fanbases of Japanese series, from Fate to Fire Emblem to Sonic, are so fragmented and at-odds with each other.

colBoh said:

It always baffles me how little Japanese devs care about things like world-building and continuity.

A lot of it is because no one taught them "show, don't tell". They think having a character sitting in a chair blabbing for an hour about someone's backstory or mechanics is enough to mean "my story is deep and respectable".

Like 99% of the Noble Phantasms in Fate, cut out all the bullshit about causality reversing or light from the dream or whatever, in the end their power just boil down to "big damage numbers". It's the reason Gae Bolg has the supposed OHKO power but we never got to see it really work and stick. Functionally you could delete the whole paragraphs about its power and say "Lancer stabs" and you'd get the same result. It's all telling and no showing.

As a person who is a casual observer of Fate and has only ever seen the fanart and read the doujins, I can say with confidence that its probably best to treat each entry as an alternate universe. This makes understanding Fate/GO much easier as whenever they bring up some bullshit from another entry, it makes it easy to write it off as just a reference.

azurelorochi said:

A lot of it is because no one taught them "show, don't tell". They think having a character sitting in a chair blabbing for an hour about someone's backstory or mechanics is enough to mean "my story is deep and respectable".

Like 99% of the Noble Phantasms in Fate, cut out all the bullshit about causality reversing or light from the dream or whatever, in the end their power just boil down to "big damage numbers". It's the reason Gae Bolg has the supposed OHKO power but we never got to see it really work and stick. Functionally you could delete the whole paragraphs about its power and say "Lancer stabs" and you'd get the same result. It's all telling and no showing.

Having read every single fucking piece of fate/stay night (down to getting every possible bad end), the big problem it has is taking a long time setting up what is an interesting and intricate internal rule-set only to subvert it and then subvert the subversion. Gae Bolg has fate powers, can basically rewrite your fate to be killed by it. Seems unbeatable? While some fates can't be rewritten by it, and maybe luck can neutralize it. Seems fair, so far. Then you get into the issues that in F/SN, the rules don't work because they were written by cheaters who were looking for legalistic loopholes to exploit. Basically the grail war is a sham. So Gae Bolg may or may not work based off of rather bullshit technicalities.

The problem being that the idea of it all being a sham and not all information being presented is quite accurate (or an over-simplifcaiton) is difficult to express due to Shirou being the outsider to end all outsiders. I think if it were from Rin's point of view, who has a limited but insider understanding of how things are supposed to work would be better for establishing the rules and how/why they are being broken.

Fate/stay night suffers a lot because the original design, to my knowledge, was just to have the "Fate" and "Unlimited Blade Works" arcs, which to me (especially UBW) do a good job presenting a setting and sticking to it. Heaven's feel was a planned sequel, but since they felt they may not get another chance to it, its welded onto F/SN. Heaven's feel, to me, is where most of the lore rape comes into because its basically a very different story being attached to an unrelated series.

The problem is that Nasu goes by what makes an interesting story and gives it thematic and dramatic weight and nerds obsessed with making Death Battle posts on the internet get mad that they can't math their way to figuring out if Goku can beat Superman,.

This artist's commentary is stupid and wrong too, and anybody whining about that a rule is set up in fiction to be broken for dramatic effect needs to take a freaking writing class.

Pata-Hikari said:

The problem is that Nasu goes by what makes an interesting story and gives it thematic and dramatic weight and nerds obsessed with making Death Battle posts on the internet get mad that they can't math their way to figuring out if Goku can beat Superman,.

This artist's commentary is stupid and wrong too, and anybody whining about that a rule is set up in fiction to be broken for dramatic effect needs to take a freaking writing class.

When the author spends the better part of a fucking hour in a VN to establish a point they can't just bullshit their way out of it later.

Pata-Hikari said:

The problem is that Nasu goes by what makes an interesting story and gives it thematic and dramatic weight and nerds obsessed with making Death Battle posts on the internet get mad that they can't math their way to figuring out if Goku can beat Superman,.

This artist's commentary is stupid and wrong too, and anybody whining about that a rule is set up in fiction to be broken for dramatic effect needs to take a freaking writing class.

I get where you're coming from, but some people LIKE having all the bits connect in some way, instead of just having someone slap them and say "It's just a goddamned story, sit down, shut up, and enjoy it for what it is!"

Pata-Hikari said:

The problem is that Nasu goes by what makes an interesting story and gives it thematic and dramatic weight and nerds obsessed with making Death Battle posts on the internet get mad that they can't math their way to figuring out if Goku can beat Superman,.

This artist's commentary is stupid and wrong too, and anybody whining about that a rule is set up in fiction to be broken for dramatic effect needs to take a freaking writing class.

There's a very big difference between breaking an established rule for dramatic effect, and breaking a rule because you wrote yourself into a corner and had to bullshit your way out.

Saladofstones said:

When the author spends the better part of a fucking hour in a VN to establish a point they can't just bullshit their way out of it later.

blindVigil said:

There's a very big difference between breaking an established rule for dramatic effect, and breaking a rule because you wrote yourself into a corner and had to bullshit your way out.

Described: A thing that does not happen in any Nasu story.

UserAccount said:

I get where you're coming from, but some people LIKE having all the bits connect in some way, instead of just having someone slap them and say "It's just a goddamned story, sit down, shut up, and enjoy it for what it is!"

Well good news, this describes Fate/Stay Night very well. It's just that you have to actually read it rather than skim wiki articles and shitposts.

Also lol Saladofstones has no freaking idea what they're talking about.

Saladofstones said:

Having read every single fucking piece of fate/stay night (down to getting every possible bad end),

Lmao you clearly did not read it if you display such basic failures of comprehension.

Saladofstones said:

the big problem it has is taking a long time setting up what is an interesting and intricate internal rule-set only to subvert it and then subvert the subversion. Gae Bolg has fate powers, can basically rewrite your fate to be killed by it. Seems unbeatable? While some fates can't be rewritten by it, and maybe luck can neutralize it. Seems fair, so far. Then you get into the issues that in F/SN, the rules don't work because they were written by cheaters who were looking for legalistic loopholes to exploit. Basically the grail war is a sham. So Gae Bolg may or may not work based off of rather bullshit technicalities.

Right here we clearly see part of your failure to comprehend a narrative. Gae Bolg the Noble Phantasm has absolutely nothing to do with the "rules" of summoning Servants set up by the Holy Grail War. Nowhere is this said in the slightest. It works like the narrative says, it pierces your heart unless you manage to be lucky enough (which is explicitly defined as the ability to "Defy Fate", so blocking Gae Bolg's power)

The problem being that the idea of it all being a sham and not all information being presented is quite accurate (or an over-simplifcaiton) is difficult to express due to Shirou being the outsider to end all outsiders. I think if it were from Rin's point of view, who has a limited but insider understanding of how things are supposed to work would be better for establishing the rules and how/why they are being broken.

Another example confusing the man made rules of the artificial conflict set up by a bunch of amoral wizards and the metaphysical magical rules of the setting.

Fate/stay night suffers a lot because the original design, to my knowledge, was just to have the "Fate" and "Unlimited Blade Works" arcs, which to me (especially UBW) do a good job presenting a setting and sticking to it. Heaven's feel was a planned sequel, but since they felt they may not get another chance to it, its welded onto F/SN. Heaven's feel, to me, is where most of the lore rape comes into because its basically a very different story being attached to an unrelated series.

I have no idea where you got this nonsense into your head but it's a load of crap. Fate and UBW were not the only originally planned routes. Heck, there were more routes originally planned in FSN that got cut out. A route with Illya, a route with a Stray Servant Shielder, and I think maybe some more. The narrative was parred down to three paths to create a complete meta-narrative.

Like, it's incredibly dumb to use the phrase "Lore rape" in the first place. But literally every element of Heaven's Feel is foreshadowed in earlier routes in the game. It's not Nasu's fault you didn't pay attention to the narrative in the slightest.

UserAccount said:

I get where you're coming from, but some people LIKE having all the bits connect in some way, instead of just having someone slap them and say "It's just a goddamned story, sit down, shut up, and enjoy it for what it is!"

Personally I've found effective for my mental peace to think of any game, book, comic, etcétera as a single history. Then any posterior continuity always like a spin off with some similarities from the previous one. It doesn't matter if it is a preplaned trilogy, a sequel, a prequel or "based on...", we all know there exits external elements that won't allow that to be possible (except for those that still debate if Goku can beat Superman).

To name an example, some are so naive to think people will accept to watch exactly what was printed on paper or played on the videogame. What is the point? For that purpose I would better stick to the original. Then we have the long run book. Some really expect they will condense whatever amount of volumes, characters, side plots and such in two hours. Of course I will see someting totally different to the original, it has to reach to a closing and conclusion in that short timeline. Yet some people unrealistically think it will otherwise.

Saladofstones said:

rant rant rant..

gor having read so much of JUST THE VISUAL NOVEL you sure project yourself as some sort of authority. if you hate it so much why do you always interject to point out you hate it? Are you and Steak friends?

I have read over a 1000 doujinshi.
Not known to anime,
nor known to visual novels.
And yet, these snek titties shall remain held.
So as I trace,
UNLIMITED BOOB WORKS.

Baal said:

I have never played a single Fate game or watched any of the anime, and I honestly think its settings are poorly executed and not worth my time

How can you decide how well-executed a setting is if you haven't read any of it? Is it like that thing where you judge food without eating it based on how it looks?
Way to lose a great deal of my respect, buddy.

cd_young said:

gor having read so much of JUST THE VISUAL NOVEL you sure project yourself as some sort of authority. if you hate it so much why do you always interject to point out you hate it? Are you and Steak friends?

For the record I don't hate F/SN and have no regrets with my time spent on it. Pointing out flaws in a piece is different than hating on it.

Saladofstones said:

For the record I don't hate F/SN and have no regrets with my time spent on it. Pointing out flaws in a piece is different than hating on it.

Also, this. It's perfectly okay to like something and yet points its flaws out. Nothing is perfect. Not even Allah.

Pata-Hikari said:
I have no idea where you got this nonsense into your head but it's a load of crap. Fate and UBW were not the only originally planned routes. Heck, there were more routes originally planned in FSN that got cut out. A route with Illya, a route with a Stray Servant Shielder, and I think maybe some more. The narrative was parred down to three paths to create a complete meta-narrative.

I am willing to cop to not knowing what their plan was on it. Its been six years since I've read it and I'll admit to misremembering details. I still think part of the problem, like with NP, is that I still think its hard to judge what exactly anything does because the grail war itself is a sham where, from what I remember in Heaven's Feel, things go so tits up it stops being a grail war.

Also please dial back the confrontational attitude.

Seeing all these comments makes me glad that I only read fan comics and doujins from the series.

boredman23 said:

Seeing all these comments makes me glad that I only read fan comics and doujins from the series.

Dear god that is a genuinely awful attitude.

You literally are judging something without ever having touched it once. Without ever having tried **any** of it.

So much of this commentary is just genuinely awful.

I mean who the fuck judges how a series is by it's fucking fan doujns? Jesus.

warellis said:

Stuff

Maybe because I interpreted the whole conversation (more like argument, really) as "The series so confusing that you need three doctoral to understand it and an extra 10 years of your life". Doesn't help when one of the comments says that it the series isn't great connecting all of the universes either (and people being aggressive to others about said story).

Think I'll stick in my little corner and read each artist's different headcannons on the setting.

boredman23 said:

Maybe because I interpreted the whole conversation (more like argument, really) as "The series so confusing that you need three doctoral to understand it and an extra 10 years of your life". Doesn't help when one of the comments says that it the series isn't great connecting all of the universes either (and people being aggressive to others about said story).

Think I'll stick in my little corner and read each artist's different headcannons on the setting.

The only problem with the Fate series is actually in fact, the fans. If you listen to the fans, then the Fate series itself is a streaming pile of chaining dog shit that has no starting or ending point and is impossible to get into because of the elitist bullshit attitude and gatekeeping that has existed since Nasu's hayday when he wanted to write the story as an Otome game.

If you want to get into Fate, just get into it. It doesn't matter where you start, whether it be from the Original VN, Stay Night anime, or even Extra. Hell, FGO is also just as good of a starting point as well cause if we want to talk about connecting universe it is usually the only one that's been consistent about what they want (YOUR MONEY). Due to the Fate series having been broken off to so much different series and spinoffs, just choose the one you will like the most and have fun. Start with Prisma Illya if you want to, just to piss the "real" fans off (although I think UBW might be better if you really want to taste the tears)

If you listen to the fans, you will never be able to get into it at all because they will always demand that you read the entire Fatepedia site, jerk off to at least 5 variation of Artoria (yeah, I know they call her Altria now but that is still stupid fucking decision just for a joke), and stalk Nasu for at least a week.

I personally hated the original Fate/Stay Night anime series because I saw it as overhyped when it was released back then and thought the whole story was absolutely retarded by every measurable point and didn't get into the series until Extra (although I was apprehensive due to it carrying the title) and didn't fully started enjoying it until FGO itself. I still don't like Stay Night and it's variants all that much, but I enjoy everything else.

boredman23 said:

Maybe because I interpreted the whole conversation (more like argument, really) as "The series so confusing that you need three doctoral to understand it and an extra 10 years of your life".

It isn't, really. All the various elements of the Nasuverse (with both Tsukihime and Fate) are more like references and fanservices to each others. All you need to do is read Tsukihime and Fate/Stay Night, and you're pretty much set. You can even skip Tsukihime and read just Fate/Stay Night. And tell us which route you prefer. I'd suggest reading a few more stories after Stay Night, but only if you actually liked it, otherwise it'll be just tedious.
The main issue, frankly, is that every later work makes references to old Fate stuff, so if you play Fate/Grand Order (the lastest one, the very shitty one), you'll get a lot of references to Fate/Extra and Fake/Strange Fake and Fake/Apocrypha, and you're expected to understand every reference.

boredman23 said:

Maybe because I interpreted the whole conversation (more like argument, really) as "The series so confusing that you need three doctoral to understand it and an extra 10 years of your life". Doesn't help when one of the comments says that it the series isn't great connecting all of the universes either (and people being aggressive to others about said story).

Think I'll stick in my little corner and read each artist's different headcannons on the setting.

Really, unless you want to delve into the world's mechanics with a fine-tooth comb, I'd say the main strength are the fights (especially in the VN, as weird as it sounds, Nasu has a gift as far as describing fight scenes) and the character dynamics. I'd treat each seperate nasuverse thing as its own continuity with some common elements rather than a cohesive, all encompassing world since its got about 3 mainline series (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, Fate/Stay Night) that can be enjoyed without knowledge of the other two.

FRien said:
A lot

Thanks i still don't understand a thing

This must be what Sonic fans look like when we argue about whether or not Shadow sucks or some shit

JEP2004 said:

Thanks i still don't understand a thing

Sorry, I tried to make it simple.
Stick to Fate/Stay Night, it explains magic and how it works. There's no big plot, so you can read/play whatever you want, but the other games/novels expect you to know how magic works in the Fate world.

NegativeSoul said:

You know what's hilarious about this? The commentary. You literally have a better chance understanding Fate by reading doujins and other fan-creations that managed to filter out redundancy than going through the official stuff.

I love Fate, but when you can make a statement like that...

Frankly this is kind of bullshit. Like I'm first in line to be jaded about Fate these days (particularly because of the direction F/GO has been going, Lostbelts are an absolute trainwreck of writing, thematically as well as story and powercreep wise) but Fate as a universe/franchise really isn't hard to understand by any means unless you purposefully turn your brain off and force yourself to not understand what's going on and what's being said.
Yeah sure Nasu loves his CONCEPTUAL and METAPHYSICAL stuff but even the rules of the setting are all in all pretty straightforward, and treating each Fate entry as something of a standalone thing definitely helps. Treat Fate/Zero and Stay Night together because Zero is a prequel, but treat Extra as its own thing, Apocrypha also, etc.

Hell, even completely ignoring the VN and going anime-only tells you more than enough about the setting and its rules to understand most of everything that goes on and only leaves minor aspects as unexplained. (Why did Artoria not get fatally hit by Gae Bolg? im not sure but man that was cool)

Also I think the artist really shouldn't be making statements like "the settings are poorly executed" when they, by their own admission, have never consumed any media other than fan doujins and porn. Come on now.

Pata-Hikari said:

-lots of stuff here-

Tone aside frankly a lot of this comment is on the money.

Keo said:

The only problem with the Fate series is actually in fact, the fans. If you listen to the fans, then the Fate series itself is a streaming pile of chaining dog shit that has no starting or ending point and is impossible to get into because of the elitist bullshit attitude and gatekeeping that has existed since Nasu's hayday when he wanted to write the story as an Otome game.

God ain't that the truth. Some of the elitist fans can be a real pain, especially for newcomers. I've legit seen people getting dogpiled for daring to prefer the way the anime did something rather than how it was in the VN. blargh how dare you like the anime changes, gilgamesh wasn't surprised about heracles breaking out of the chains read the VN he KNEW it was coming!!!!!!!!!

boredman23 said:

Maybe because I interpreted the whole conversation (more like argument, really) as "The series so confusing that you need three doctoral to understand it and an extra 10 years of your life". Doesn't help when one of the comments says that it the series isn't great connecting all of the universes either (and people being aggressive to others about said story).

Think I'll stick in my little corner and read each artist's different headcannons on the setting.

Honestly the setting isn't confusing unless you purposefully go very in-depth into the mechanics and the lore of everything. I think you should give it a try, the setting is pretty sweet and the anime adaptations are generally pretty damn cool. At least if you don't like it you'll be able to say you tried it and didn't like it which is more than this artist can say!

azurelorochi said:

A lot of it is because no one taught them "show, don't tell". They think having a character sitting in a chair blabbing for an hour about someone's backstory or mechanics is enough to mean "my story is deep and respectable".

Like 99% of the Noble Phantasms in Fate, cut out all the bullshit about causality reversing or light from the dream or whatever, in the end their power just boil down to "big damage numbers". It's the reason Gae Bolg has the supposed OHKO power but we never got to see it really work and stick. Functionally you could delete the whole paragraphs about its power and say "Lancer stabs" and you'd get the same result. It's all telling and no showing.

This, this is exactly why all in all the franchise is a lot more approachable than fan discussions let on. Because unless you actually CARE about Nasu's DEEP, CONCEPTUAL writing, then all of it can kind of be ignored as meaningless fluff that just means "Lancer stabs your heart very good but Artoria was very lucky and avoided it."

Yikes.
I'm a longbeard of Sonic Fandom and Warcraft Fandom, and I'm getting some strong deja vu here. I get the impression that fans of the original Fate Stay Night visual novel are in this same place. I haven't touched pretty much any part of the Fate franchise outside the visual novel, so I don't know anything about FGO, but stop me if any of this sounds familiar.

There was this piece of media a long time ago that started a franchise, and it was great and we loved that one thing, but twenty years later the franchise has become something entirely different, and now the entirely different stuff is not only more recent, but much, much larger and more well known than the original thing we loved, so the majority of people today who hear about it hear about the stuff we don't care for. Unfortunately, when the new stuff attracts derision, we want to defend the franchise even though the criticism barely even relates to the original thing that made us become fans in the first place, but when we try to defend it the discussion goes in circles because we thoroughly can't understand the viewpoint of non-fans or newer fans coming into the franchise from the other direction.

ElevatorEleven said:

There was this piece of media a long time ago that started a franchise, and it was great and we loved that one thing, but twenty years later the franchise has become something entirely different, and now the entirely different stuff is not only more recent, but much, much larger and more well known than the original thing we loved, so the majority of people today who hear about it hear about the stuff we don't care for. Unfortunately, when the new stuff attracts derision, we want to defend the franchise even though the criticism barely even relates to the original thing that made us become fans in the first place, but when we try to defend it the discussion goes in circles because we thoroughly can't understand the viewpoint of non-fans or newer fans coming into the franchise from the other direction.

Not.....really. A lot of Fate's current problems were already there from it's first days. The problem was that sort of BS writing became the standard and now every writer feels compelled that their character has to have 5 different BS unique mechanics attached to them otherwise they'd feel "incomplete", even if said BS doesn't make sense or affect the plot in any tangible way.

Issue was back in FSN and Fzero days, the numbers of bullshit were still manageable. But now the entire franchise is a bog of clusterfuck mess "depth" where the fans will tear out each other's throat to argue over despite the writers themselves having "lolwut who the hell cares about these rules" attitude and subverts their own rule for the littlest reason as wanting to make an alternate version of a character in a swimsuit.

It's the problem of the same bullshit piling up over and over and no one wants to fix it because most of their writers(and fans) still think this is how you write a "deep character" and "deep story".

And not really, they do still talk about the old things. In fact the latter installments relentlessly milk every drop of nostalgia and inside jokes from FSN to no end, so if you loved the FSN characters, they still very much are still pandering to you. To an annoying level, if you ask me. Artoria may very well be the Charizard of the Fate franchise, if not even worse.

This comment section is the embodiment of aids

darkspire91 said:

I was under the assumption that it all takes place in the same universe just in different locations.

It can't be a different location because the thing that split the timeline is that in the Apocrypha universe the Einzbern never fucked up the Grail by summoning Avenger. In this universe they instead summoned Ruler.

boredman23 said:

Maybe because I interpreted the whole conversation (more like argument, really) as "The series so confusing that you need three doctoral to understand it and an extra 10 years of your life". Doesn't help when one of the comments says that it the series isn't great connecting all of the universes either (and people being aggressive to others about said story).

Think I'll stick in my little corner and read each artist's different headcannons on the setting.

Basically every official Fate series is different artists making their headcanons official.
If you can follow artists' headcanon you can 100% follow the Fate canon as long as you don't invest any time trying to make sense of how any of it fits together. It is honestly not that complicated. Fate is as a deep as puddle. A wide puddle mind you. But you won't get your ankles wet.

There is a goodamn cooking spin-off for crying out loud.

As much as I like what the writers tried to do, a lot of Fate's universe to me reads like the writers wanted to take most of the metaphysical stuff from the Elder Scrolls series that Michael Kirkbride wrote and then add the legendary heroes and stories from earth.

And the issue there is that unless you've got something like CHIM that allows your writers to play fast and loose with established canon while still also being a satisfactory in-universe explanation for plot holes and said writers' slip ups, your fans will end up dunking on each other.

The Fate series is not complicated. It's just a comic book universe. It's literally the same shit as Marvel, just replace the fifteen different alternate timeline Spidermen with a Gender-bent King Arthur.

ilnarnar said:

As much as I like what the writers tried to do, a lot of Fate's universe to me reads like the writers wanted to take most of the metaphysical stuff from the Elder Scrolls series that Michael Kirkbride wrote and then add the legendary heroes and stories from earth.

I very strongly disagree with this. Because if writing metaphysical things are the core, then those things would 1) at least attempted to make sense. 2) actually be relevant to the story.

As I've stated earlier, you can trim most of the metaphysical BS(90% of NP mechanics, imaginary numbers, counterbalance, half the rules in Servant summoning) off and the story would be exactly the same with dumbed down explanations because the story never truly does anything with those explanations.

I think it's far more owed to Nasu's TTRPG background. Things like DnD are indeed known to have tiny separate rules for everything. He just like filling out his character sheets, and none of the later writers tried to change it when it no longer make sense.

Tk3997 said:

The Fate series is not complicated. It's just a comic book universe. It's literally the same shit as Marvel, just replace the fifteen different alternate timeline Spidermen with a Gender-bent King Arthur.

At least Marvel(and DC) tried to streamline their universe multiple time, trim off the stupid pointless shits because they know how convolutions chased their fans away. And at least in things like MCU you have someone like Kevin Feige to make sure the tone and mechanics are consistent.

Whereas in Fate everyone continues to pretend the convolution makes the universe deep(when again, it doesn't because you could cut most of it out and not lose a thing) and the tone is sometimes a massive mess(I need you to take this apocalyptic story seriously while half-naked ladies talk about how they wanna be your mommy).

Tk3997 said:

The Fate series is not complicated. It's just a comic book universe. It's literally the same shit as Marvel, just replace the fifteen different alternate timeline Spidermen with a Gender-bent King Arthur.

It never was complicated truth be told. It literally is outsiders, like this artist, or that hack Gigguk, who act all confused and then practically lie and pretend it's oh so complicated and super convoluted when it barely is.

Wow what a whiny pissbaby who tried to hide my post via downvoting because they were mad that I pointed out how wrong and stupid they are.

with all the autism about lore, no one noted that Shirou is indeed affected by Medusa's sex appeal and the only reason why he wouldn't go unlimite boner works on her is because he'd rather not deal with anyone walking in and raising a fuss.

StriderTuna said:

with all the autism about lore, no one noted that Shirou is indeed affected by Medusa's sex appeal and the only reason why he wouldn't go unlimite boner works on her is because he'd rather not deal with anyone walking in and raising a fuss.

kireinamo's shirou finds this to be a weakling's thinking.

StriderTuna said:

with all the autism about lore, no one noted that Shirou is indeed affected by Medusa's sex appeal and the only reason why he wouldn't go unlimite boner works on her is because he'd rather not deal with anyone walking in and raising a fuss.

It seems that i underestimated you Shirou

StriderTuna said:

with all the autism about lore, no one noted that Shirou is indeed affected by Medusa's sex appeal and the only reason why he wouldn't go unlimite boner works on her is because he'd rather not deal with anyone walking in and raising a fuss.

That and Sakura doing her cockblocking.

azurelorochi said:

It's basically like Kingdom Hearts. The writers never really have a plan going forward but every installment feels compelled to add a new mechanic to the universe even if it doesn't make sense. Seemingly because the original writer operates on the logic of "the longer the paragraphs the deeper my story is".
The first one was already convoluted but digestable, but once you got to the tenth installment everything is a clusterfuck and no rules mean jack because we make new rules solely for the sake of breaking them.

Then the franchise became split because no one can decide if a "true Fate fan" is a gacha-happy whale who gets baited into emptying his bank account everytime new swimsuit Servants are released, or someone who can hold a full semester of college lectures on how the universe works and how it connects to Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai and can name all the useless Master names in Apocrypha.

Just one semester?

Sometimes I like to come back to this shifest of a comments section and remind myself damn im sure glad to be a dirty casual

Fate is really not that complex if you take in the stories one at a time, like they're meant to be. Trying to absorb all of the lore and juggle it all in your head will get you frustrated, and it's not the franchises fault. It's like Kingdom Hearts; makes more sense if you stop stressing about the big picture and just play the games in order.

Anyway, taste is subjective kids; if ya like it, ya like it. If ya don't, ya don't. Don't spring up BS reasons as to why your side of the matter is "justified", or else you get another comments section like this one.

Or do, actually, it's entertaining.

god what is even this comment section lol

azurelorochi said:

It's basically like Kingdom Hearts. The writers never really have a plan going forward but every installment feels compelled to add a new mechanic to the universe even if it doesn't make sense. Seemingly because the original writer operates on the logic of "the longer the paragraphs the deeper my story is".
The first one was already convoluted but digestable, but once you got to the tenth installment everything is a clusterfuck and no rules mean jack because we make new rules solely for the sake of breaking them.

Then the franchise became split because no one can decide if a "true Fate fan" is a gacha-happy whale who gets baited into emptying his bank account everytime new swimsuit Servants are released, or someone who can hold a full semester of college lectures on how the universe works and how it connects to Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai and can name all the useless Master names in Apocrypha.

Got any proof of Kingdom Hearts not having any plans going foreword?

warellis said:

It never was complicated truth be told. It literally is outsiders, like this artist, or that hack Gigguk, who act all confused and then practically lie and pretend it's oh so complicated and super convoluted when it barely is.

Aye most sub series of Fate are set in their own AUs, EXTRA is set in an AU, same with FGO, Redline, and most of the rest, it really isn't that hard to understand, it's not all one setting which helps free up the writers to experiment more rather then the issue with Western comics and the like with "Status Quo is God"

blindVigil said:

"Its settings are poorly executed" couldn't be more accurate. Fate is the product of indie VN writers, and it's really obvious both in how the characters (western ones mostly) are named and how often pre-established rules are changed or just flat out ignored.

Other then "Altria", what other poor names exist? They're all fine to me, unless you mean Heracles which is what he's supposed to be called in Greek Myth, as Hercules is the Roman version?

Witch-Hunter-Siegfried said:

Other then "Altria", what other poor names exist? They're all fine to me, unless you mean Heracles which is what he's supposed to be called in Greek Myth, as Hercules is the Roman version?

I think they meant mortal characters (Masters, etc.) with Western names. A lot of them are just two things that the writers sounded cool slapped together in ways that make no sense to people more familiar with those languages. Sometimes I think the Crypter Pepe's full name/alias is them making fun of themselves for that.